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Post by retired on Feb 17, 2019 15:19:23 GMT -6
I won't go into names, but I will submit a now famous, or infamous, incident that happened a couple of years ago. Here is the preface to what happened.
Two high school teams were warming up before a game. Depending on whose side you believe, there was, or was not, an agreement to end pregame warmups a little early in order for the home team to have a special pregame ceremony.
When the time came to leave the field the home team left, but the visitors did not. After a little time the PA system asked that the field be cleared for the ceremony, but the visitors ignored the request. Seeing no action, it was again announced on the PA system for the field to be cleared. The visitors again refused to leave the field so the police asked the coach personally to have his team leave the field. The coach refused. The home team principal finally told the police to tell him to leave or he would be force-ably removed. The coach again refused, and was handcuffed and taken off of the field.
So many things were done wrong in this story, and there was plenty of blame by all parties to go around. Arguments can be made that both sides were right or wrong, and arguments can be made about who was most at fault.
But one irrefutable fact is that this high school coach refused to follow the instructions of the school administrators who had authority over everything on the campus (except the game officials). This high school coach then refused to follow the instruction of the police officer several times until they forcibly removed him from the field. He did all of this in front of his team, the other team, and all the fans in the stand.
The LHSAA took no action against the coach, and therefore exonerated him of his unlawful actions. By doing so, in my opinion, the LHSAA made a statement (by their actions) that it is perfectly OK to disobey a police officer or school administrator.
You do realize that nothing in this story stated that the OFFICIALS asked the visiting team to leave. Also, if the coach in question won the lawsuit, wouldn't that mean that his actions were NOT unlawful? Isn't it just possible that the school administrator and police were WRONG in this case, asking the visitor to leave the field prior to the game?
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Post by BGH on Feb 17, 2019 17:10:15 GMT -6
I won't go into names, but I will submit a now famous, or infamous, incident that happened a couple of years ago. Here is the preface to what happened.
Two high school teams were warming up before a game. Depending on whose side you believe, there was, or was not, an agreement to end pregame warmups a little early in order for the home team to have a special pregame ceremony.
When the time came to leave the field the home team left, but the visitors did not. After a little time the PA system asked that the field be cleared for the ceremony, but the visitors ignored the request. Seeing no action, it was again announced on the PA system for the field to be cleared. The visitors again refused to leave the field so the police asked the coach personally to have his team leave the field. The coach refused. The home team principal finally told the police to tell him to leave or he would be force-ably removed. The coach again refused, and was handcuffed and taken off of the field.
So many things were done wrong in this story, and there was plenty of blame by all parties to go around. Arguments can be made that both sides were right or wrong, and arguments can be made about who was most at fault.
But one irrefutable fact is that this high school coach refused to follow the instructions of the school administrators who had authority over everything on the campus (except the game officials). This high school coach then refused to follow the instruction of the police officer several times until they forcibly removed him from the field. He did all of this in front of his team, the other team, and all the fans in the stand.
The LHSAA took no action against the coach, and therefore exonerated him of his unlawful actions. By doing so, in my opinion, the LHSAA made a statement (by their actions) that it is perfectly OK to disobey a police officer or school administrator.
You do realize that nothing in this story stated that the OFFICIALS asked the visiting team to leave. Also, if the coach in question won the lawsuit, wouldn't that mean that his actions were NOT unlawful? Isn't it just possible that the school administrator and police were WRONG in this case, asking the visitor to leave the field prior to the game?
You do realize that nothing in this story stated that the OFFICIALS asked the visiting team to leave. Yes I do. To my knowledge, the OFFICIALS did absolutely nothing during the incident. Also, if the coach in question won the lawsuit, wouldn't that mean that his actions were NOT unlawful? No. If I am not mistaken, he did not win a lawsuit, it was settled. But even if he did win, it does not mean HIS actions were not unlawful.
Isn't it just possible that the school administrator and police were WRONG in this case, asking the visitor to leave the field prior to the game? Yes. In fact the LHSAA admonished the principal of the school and punished the athletes, cheer groups, band, and fans of that school for 5 games the entire post season of the following year.
I hope I have answered your questions, let me ask you a few:
What do you think the OFFICIALS would have done if they asked the coach to leave the field and he did not leave?
What do you think the LHSAA would have done to this coach for refusing to follow the OFFICIALS instructions to leave the field?
Do you support the coach in ignoring the instructions of the police?
Do you think failure to follow the instructions of a police officer is unlawful?
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Post by retired on Feb 17, 2019 17:59:46 GMT -6
You do realize that nothing in this story stated that the OFFICIALS asked the visiting team to leave. Also, if the coach in question won the lawsuit, wouldn't that mean that his actions were NOT unlawful? Isn't it just possible that the school administrator and police were WRONG in this case, asking the visitor to leave the field prior to the game?
You do realize that nothing in this story stated that the OFFICIALS asked the visiting team to leave. Yes I do. To my knowledge, the OFFICIALS did absolutely nothing during the incident. Also, if the coach in question won the lawsuit, wouldn't that mean that his actions were NOT unlawful? No. If I am not mistaken, he did not win a lawsuit, it was settled. But even if he did win, it does not mean HIS actions were not unlawful.
Isn't it just possible that the school administrator and police were WRONG in this case, asking the visitor to leave the field prior to the game? Yes. In fact the LHSAA admonished the principal of the school and punished the athletes, cheer groups, band, and fans of that school for 5 games the entire post season of the following year.
I hope I have answered your questions, let me ask you a few:
What do you think the OFFICIALS would have done if they asked the coach to leave the field and he did not leave?
What do you think the LHSAA would have done to this coach for refusing to follow the OFFICIALS instructions to leave the field?
Do you support the coach in ignoring the instructions of the police?
Do you think failure to follow the instructions of a police officer is unlawful?
What you don't seem to realize is that perhaps the School Admin and Police had no dominion here. The game officials did regarding proper pre game warmup procedures. I don't know what the officials would have done to be honest. Probably flagged the team, potentially ejected him. But I am betting it would never have come to that because the coach would have followed the request of person in charge of the situation at that time (the officials) If the police were improperly giving the coach a directive in which they had no legal basis to do so, I think I may have to answer yes, I support the coach in ignoring those. If a police officer came to your home and directed you to use _____ brand of fertilizer on your yard, would you do it? Again, I could be wrong, but I believe he would have just as much authority and dominion in that situation as in the situation you are describing. Was it ever shown that the coach in question was in breach of the agreement? If so he should have been disciplined by his superiors.
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Post by BGH on Feb 17, 2019 21:02:54 GMT -6
You do realize that nothing in this story stated that the OFFICIALS asked the visiting team to leave. Yes I do. To my knowledge, the OFFICIALS did absolutely nothing during the incident. Also, if the coach in question won the lawsuit, wouldn't that mean that his actions were NOT unlawful? No. If I am not mistaken, he did not win a lawsuit, it was settled. But even if he did win, it does not mean HIS actions were not unlawful.
Isn't it just possible that the school administrator and police were WRONG in this case, asking the visitor to leave the field prior to the game? Yes. In fact the LHSAA admonished the principal of the school and punished the athletes, cheer groups, band, and fans of that school for 5 games the entire post season of the following year.
I hope I have answered your questions, let me ask you a few:
What do you think the OFFICIALS would have done if they asked the coach to leave the field and he did not leave?
What do you think the LHSAA would have done to this coach for refusing to follow the OFFICIALS instructions to leave the field?
Do you support the coach in ignoring the instructions of the police?
Do you think failure to follow the instructions of a police officer is unlawful?
What you don't seem to realize is that perhaps the School Admin and Police had no dominion here. The game officials did regarding proper pre game warmup procedures. I don't know what the officials would have done to be honest. Probably flagged the team, potentially ejected him. But I am betting it would never have come to that because the coach would have followed the request of person in charge of the situation at that time (the officials) If the police were improperly giving the coach a directive in which they had no legal basis to do so, I think I may have to answer yes, I support the coach in ignoring those. If a police officer came to your home and directed you to use _____ brand of fertilizer on your yard, would you do it? Again, I could be wrong, but I believe he would have just as much authority and dominion in that situation as in the situation you are describing. Was it ever shown that the coach in question was in breach of the agreement? If so he should have been disciplined by his superiors. What you don't seem to realize is that perhaps the School Admin and Police had no dominion here. The game officials did regarding proper pre game warmup procedures. Yet your beloved almighty officials did nothing! They did not come to the aid of the coach or the policeman. Shouldn't they have done something since you say they have the ultimate dominion over the principal and police. Maybe they should have been fined for not doing their duty.
If the police were improperly giving the coach a directive in which they had no legal basis to do so, I think I may have to answer yes, I support the coach in ignoring those. Anarchy is what that is called. We don't need police if every individual makes their own determination of the law.
If a police officer came to your home and directed you to use _____ brand of fertilizer on your yard, would you do it? Again, I could be wrong, but I believe he would have just as much authority and dominion in that situation as in the situation you are describing. That is silly to say the least, but let's talk about it. If a policeman came in my yard and tells me to stop doing something, I will argue till the cows come home if I think I am in the right, but I will not push it to the point where he arrests me. The proper procedure there would be follow his instructions and then file a complaint or take him to court. That is why we have a legal system. That is what we should be teaching our children, instead of civil disobedience. Don't get me wrong, I am a rebel at heart and I hate big controlling government and would fight and resist against them for the right reasons. Until then i try to follow the law.
I don't know what the officials would have done to be honest. Probably flagged the team, potentially ejected him. But I am betting it would never have come to that because the coach would have followed the request of person in charge of the situation at that time (the officials)
And when they flagged him and ejected him and he still wouldn't leave the field, what do you think they would have done. I am pretty sure they would have asked the police to escort him off of the field. Now we are back to square one because we know this coach does not obey the police.
Was it ever shown that the coach in question was in breach of the agreement? If so he should have been disciplined by his superiors. Obviously his school had no problem with him disregarding the orders of a police officer (in all honesty I think it was prearranged) and neither did the LHSAA, because to my knowledge neither one said a word about his actions. By saying nothing, that means they condoned his actions.
After going down this rabbit hole with you, lets step back and talk about what really happened that night. Apparently two women principals got into a pissing contest and brought all this about. This lack of civility should have never happened to begin with. When the teams were asked to leave the field a little early they should have complied, and this coach should have never pushed it this far. What life lesson are we teaching our youth when our schools act this way? As I said in the beginning, you reap what you sow. When you sow civil disobedience you have to expect that is what you are going to get.
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Post by retired on Feb 17, 2019 21:58:02 GMT -6
What you don't seem to realize is that perhaps the School Admin and Police had no dominion here. The game officials did regarding proper pre game warmup procedures. I don't know what the officials would have done to be honest. Probably flagged the team, potentially ejected him. But I am betting it would never have come to that because the coach would have followed the request of person in charge of the situation at that time (the officials) If the police were improperly giving the coach a directive in which they had no legal basis to do so, I think I may have to answer yes, I support the coach in ignoring those. If a police officer came to your home and directed you to use _____ brand of fertilizer on your yard, would you do it? Again, I could be wrong, but I believe he would have just as much authority and dominion in that situation as in the situation you are describing. Was it ever shown that the coach in question was in breach of the agreement? If so he should have been disciplined by his superiors. What you don't seem to realize is that perhaps the School Admin and Police had no dominion here. The game officials did regarding proper pre game warmup procedures. Yet your beloved almighty officials did nothing! They did not come to the aid of the coach or the policeman. Shouldn't they have done something since you say they have the ultimate dominion over the principal and police. Maybe they should have been fined for not doing their duty.
If the police were improperly giving the coach a directive in which they had no legal basis to do so, I think I may have to answer yes, I support the coach in ignoring those. Anarchy is what that is called. We don't need police if every individual makes their own determination of the law.
If a police officer came to your home and directed you to use _____ brand of fertilizer on your yard, would you do it? Again, I could be wrong, but I believe he would have just as much authority and dominion in that situation as in the situation you are describing. That is silly to say the least, but let's talk about it. If a policeman came in my yard and tells me to stop doing something, I will argue till the cows come home if I think I am in the right, but I will not push it to the point where he arrests me. The proper procedure there would be follow his instructions and then file a complaint or take him to court. That is why we have a legal system. That is what we should be teaching our children, instead of civil disobedience. Don't get me wrong, I am a rebel at heart and I hate big controlling government and would fight and resist against them for the right reasons. Until then i try to follow the law.
I don't know what the officials would have done to be honest. Probably flagged the team, potentially ejected him. But I am betting it would never have come to that because the coach would have followed the request of person in charge of the situation at that time (the officials)
And when they flagged him and ejected him and he still wouldn't leave the field, what do you think they would have done. I am pretty sure they would have asked the police to escort him off of the field. Now we are back to square one because we know this coach does not obey the police.
Was it ever shown that the coach in question was in breach of the agreement? If so he should have been disciplined by his superiors. Obviously his school had no problem with him disregarding the orders of a police officer (in all honesty I think it was prearranged) and neither did the LHSAA, because to my knowledge neither one said a word about his actions. By saying nothing, that means they condoned his actions.
After going down this rabbit hole with you, lets step back and talk about what really happened that night. Apparently two women principals got into a pissing contest and brought all this about. This lack of civility should have never happened to begin with. When the teams were asked to leave the field a little early they should have complied, and this coach should have never pushed it this far. What life lesson are we teaching our youth when our schools act this way? As I said in the beginning, you reap what you sow. When you sow civil disobedience you have to expect that is what you are going to get.
You keep stating "following the law" as if there was any legal matter here. There doesn't seem to be one. You said my scenario was silly (it was), but not much sillier than a principal ordering police to remove a team from the field during warm ups. Lets extend the silliness, lets say the visiting team's principal asked law enforcement to arrest the LEOs that were interfering with her team's ability to warm up. Could be a great standoff! See how ridiculous this could get. Now, if the officials ejected a coach and he refused to leave probably the proper thing for them to do is simply suspend the game and leave--let the state handle it from there (most likely resulting in a forfeit). Keep in mind though, that is the officials making that call, not the principal of the home team. All of that said-- I think you and some others here are missing the point. The LHSAA is trying to explain that the official shortage is going to have an impact, and when asked why officials are leaving their associations and why others are not joining the ranks, the abuse is a major reason. As you stated...you reap what you sow. When schedules are impacted because of a lack of officials... well sportsfans, you reap what you sow.
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Post by BGH on Feb 17, 2019 23:05:55 GMT -6
What you don't seem to realize is that perhaps the School Admin and Police had no dominion here. The game officials did regarding proper pre game warmup procedures. Yet your beloved almighty officials did nothing! They did not come to the aid of the coach or the policeman. Shouldn't they have done something since you say they have the ultimate dominion over the principal and police. Maybe they should have been fined for not doing their duty.
If the police were improperly giving the coach a directive in which they had no legal basis to do so, I think I may have to answer yes, I support the coach in ignoring those. Anarchy is what that is called. We don't need police if every individual makes their own determination of the law.
If a police officer came to your home and directed you to use _____ brand of fertilizer on your yard, would you do it? Again, I could be wrong, but I believe he would have just as much authority and dominion in that situation as in the situation you are describing. That is silly to say the least, but let's talk about it. If a policeman came in my yard and tells me to stop doing something, I will argue till the cows come home if I think I am in the right, but I will not push it to the point where he arrests me. The proper procedure there would be follow his instructions and then file a complaint or take him to court. That is why we have a legal system. That is what we should be teaching our children, instead of civil disobedience. Don't get me wrong, I am a rebel at heart and I hate big controlling government and would fight and resist against them for the right reasons. Until then i try to follow the law.
I don't know what the officials would have done to be honest. Probably flagged the team, potentially ejected him. But I am betting it would never have come to that because the coach would have followed the request of person in charge of the situation at that time (the officials)
And when they flagged him and ejected him and he still wouldn't leave the field, what do you think they would have done. I am pretty sure they would have asked the police to escort him off of the field. Now we are back to square one because we know this coach does not obey the police.
Was it ever shown that the coach in question was in breach of the agreement? If so he should have been disciplined by his superiors. Obviously his school had no problem with him disregarding the orders of a police officer (in all honesty I think it was prearranged) and neither did the LHSAA, because to my knowledge neither one said a word about his actions. By saying nothing, that means they condoned his actions.
After going down this rabbit hole with you, lets step back and talk about what really happened that night. Apparently two women principals got into a pissing contest and brought all this about. This lack of civility should have never happened to begin with. When the teams were asked to leave the field a little early they should have complied, and this coach should have never pushed it this far. What life lesson are we teaching our youth when our schools act this way? As I said in the beginning, you reap what you sow. When you sow civil disobedience you have to expect that is what you are going to get.
You keep stating "following the law" as if there was any legal matter here. There doesn't seem to be one. You said my scenario was silly (it was), but not much sillier than a principal ordering police to remove a team from the field during warm ups. Lets extend the silliness, lets say the visiting team's principal asked law enforcement to arrest the LEOs that were interfering with her team's ability to warm up. Could be a great standoff! See how ridiculous this could get. Now, if the officials ejected a coach and he refused to leave probably the proper thing for them to do is simply suspend the game and leave--let the state handle it from there (most likely resulting in a forfeit). Keep in mind though, that is the officials making that call, not the principal of the home team. All of that said-- I think you and some others here are missing the point. The LHSAA is trying to explain that the official shortage is going to have an impact, and when asked why officials are leaving their associations and why others are not joining the ranks, the abuse is a major reason. As you stated...you reap what you sow. When schedules are impacted because of a lack of officials... well sportsfans, you reap what you sow.
You keep stating "following the law" as if there was any legal matter here. There doesn't seem to be one. Each State's statutes are written differently, but in every state, including Washington DC, it is a misdemeanor not to follow the instructions of a law enforcement officer. So when the officer asked the coach to leave the field and the coach refused, he committed a misdemeanor. No, we are not a police state where any rogue cop can impose his will on any citizen, but the police are given a wide range of latitude when they are simply asking for cooperation.
I do find it fascinating that you are more apt to obey an OFFICIAL than a lowly policeman. At least now I am beginning to understand why OFFICIALS are so dang arrogant.
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Post by retired on Feb 17, 2019 23:16:58 GMT -6
You keep stating "following the law" as if there was any legal matter here. There doesn't seem to be one. You said my scenario was silly (it was), but not much sillier than a principal ordering police to remove a team from the field during warm ups. Lets extend the silliness, lets say the visiting team's principal asked law enforcement to arrest the LEOs that were interfering with her team's ability to warm up. Could be a great standoff! See how ridiculous this could get. Now, if the officials ejected a coach and he refused to leave probably the proper thing for them to do is simply suspend the game and leave--let the state handle it from there (most likely resulting in a forfeit). Keep in mind though, that is the officials making that call, not the principal of the home team. All of that said-- I think you and some others here are missing the point. The LHSAA is trying to explain that the official shortage is going to have an impact, and when asked why officials are leaving their associations and why others are not joining the ranks, the abuse is a major reason. As you stated...you reap what you sow. When schedules are impacted because of a lack of officials... well sportsfans, you reap what you sow.
You keep stating "following the law" as if there was any legal matter here. There doesn't seem to be one. Each State's statutes are written differently, but in every state, including Washington DC, it is a misdemeanor not to follow the instructions of a law enforcement officer. So when the officer asked the coach to leave the field and the coach refused, he committed a misdemeanor. No, we are not a police state where any rogue cop can impose his will on any citizen, but the police are given a wide range of latitude when they are simply asking for cooperation.
I do find it fascinating that you are more apt to obey an OFFICIAL than a lowly policeman. At least now I am beginning to understand why OFFICIALS are so dang arrogant.
So, if a LEO declared that a player committed a holding penalty, the team could be made to back up 10 yards? Obviously not.. Come on...get real here.
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Post by BGH on Feb 18, 2019 0:01:43 GMT -6
You keep stating "following the law" as if there was any legal matter here. There doesn't seem to be one. Each State's statutes are written differently, but in every state, including Washington DC, it is a misdemeanor not to follow the instructions of a law enforcement officer. So when the officer asked the coach to leave the field and the coach refused, he committed a misdemeanor. No, we are not a police state where any rogue cop can impose his will on any citizen, but the police are given a wide range of latitude when they are simply asking for cooperation.
I do find it fascinating that you are more apt to obey an OFFICIAL than a lowly policeman. At least now I am beginning to understand why OFFICIALS are so dang arrogant.
So, if a LEO declared that a player committed a holding penalty, the team could be made to back up 10 yards? Obviously not.. Come on...get real here.
Are you smoking dope? Where do you come up with that silliness? Nothing that has been said or implied should have led you to make a silly comment like that. You used to be better than this.
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Post by retired on Feb 18, 2019 6:45:20 GMT -6
So, if a LEO declared that a player committed a holding penalty, the team could be made to back up 10 yards? Obviously not.. Come on...get real here.
Are you smoking dope? Where do you come up with that silliness? Nothing that has been said or implied should have led you to make a silly comment like that. You used to be better than this.
I am proposing that under the guidelines, the pregame situation is the exact same as the ridiculous in game situation. You seemingly haven't understood during this discussion. Hey, I could be absolutely wrong in this assumption. Perhaps the officials do not have control of the field until the coin toss or something similar. Regardless, the underlying message here is people aren't going into officiating fast enough to replace those leaving. Without officials there can be no games. Schedules will be affected. That was the message the LHSAA was trying to convey. Your response to this was "the lhsaa supports anarchy and unrest!"
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Post by kamala on Feb 18, 2019 7:00:30 GMT -6
When I am done with coaching , I will officiate . The money will be ALOT better than what I make now for coaching and the hours are better !! Coach Lo, I gave up coaching football this past year after about 25 years of doing it. Just wasn’t enjoying it anymore. A friend talked me in to giving officiating a try. I LOVED it!!! Enjoyed it way more than I had enjoyed the last two or three years I had coached. I did about a dozen Jr High games, two JV games, and worked every Friday from scrimmage week thru the Quarterfinals ( was on the field for 7 of those weeks and on the clock for the rest). I had a blast! When the season was done, I had made more officiating than I would have made for coaching football. Plus it wasn’t spread out over 12 months AND I had my weekends off to hunt or just hang out. I am already looking forward to next year
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Post by BGH on Feb 18, 2019 8:51:36 GMT -6
Are you smoking dope? Where do you come up with that silliness? Nothing that has been said or implied should have led you to make a silly comment like that. You used to be better than this.
I am proposing that under the guidelines, the pregame situation is the exact same as the ridiculous in game situation. You seemingly haven't understood during this discussion. Hey, I could be absolutely wrong in this assumption. Perhaps the officials do not have control of the field until the coin toss or something similar. Regardless, the underlying message here is people aren't going into officiating fast enough to replace those leaving. Without officials there can be no games. Schedules will be affected.
I am proposing that under the guidelines, the pregame situation is the exact same as the ridiculous in game situation. You seemingly haven't understood during this discussion.
I have understood everything until you started the silly talk. What you seemingly haven't understood is that it does not matter whether it is pregame, middle of the game, or post-game. The coach may have been within LHSAA guidelines for being on the field at that time and the principal may have been at fault for sicking the police on him (I still think the principal has ultimate authority on what takes place on that campus and no LHSAA rule can override that). NONE OF THAT MATTERS.
But for the sake of argument let's go ahead and that say everybody involved was at fault except the coach. Still, none of that matters because once the coach refused to follow the instructions of a police officer an entirely new incident, separate from all the prior supposed wrongdoings by any and everyone else, began because that coach committed a misdemeanor. That coach set a horrible example for every student at that game by refusing to obey the law. You keep worrying about what will happen if we don't have enough officials, but what do you think is going to happen if everyone defies the police and we don't have anymore police officers.
Please remember, this is the original post of this thread that I responded to: LHSAA meeting addressed the many fights at games, threats against refs, fights with the Police. It is sad to watch our society continue to get worse, God help us... I think my response, accusing the LHSAA of condoning disobedience to law enforcement, was appropriate for that post. You are the one who brought officiating into this, not me.
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Post by retired on Feb 18, 2019 8:59:50 GMT -6
I am proposing that under the guidelines, the pregame situation is the exact same as the ridiculous in game situation. You seemingly haven't understood during this discussion. Hey, I could be absolutely wrong in this assumption. Perhaps the officials do not have control of the field until the coin toss or something similar. Regardless, the underlying message here is people aren't going into officiating fast enough to replace those leaving. Without officials there can be no games. Schedules will be affected.
I am proposing that under the guidelines, the pregame situation is the exact same as the ridiculous in game situation. You seemingly haven't understood during this discussion.
I have understood everything until you started the silly talk. What you seemingly haven't understood is that it does not matter whether it is pregame, middle of the game, or post-game. The coach may have been within LHSAA guidelines for being on the field at that time and the principal may have been at fault for sicking the police on him (I still think the principal has ultimate authority on what takes place on that campus and no LHSAA rule can override that). NONE OF THAT MATTERS.
But for the sake of argument let's go ahead and that say everybody involved was at fault except the coach. Still, none of that matters because once the coach refused to follow the instructions of a police officer an entirely new incident, separate from all the prior supposed wrongdoings by any and everyone else, began because that coach committed a misdemeanor. That coach set a horrible example for every student at that game by refusing to obey the law. You keep worrying about what will happen if we don't have enough officials, but what do you think is going to happen if everyone defies the police and we don't have anymore police officers.
Please remember, this is the original post of this thread that I responded to: LHSAA meeting addressed the many fights at games, threats against refs, fights with the Police. It is sad to watch our society continue to get worse, God help us... I think my response, accusing the LHSAA of condoning disobedience to law enforcement, was appropriate for that post. You are the one who brought officiating into this, not me.
Then don't you see then, by your very statement "does not matter whether it is pregame, middle of game, post game" my silly scenario regarding the penalty stands, and your reply is NONE OF THAT MATTERS. So you are saying that should an LEO decide that he believes that a penalty occurred and ordered the team back 10 yards, you would support the coaches to just accept that. Remember your exact words are NONE OF THAT MATTERS. The coach, officials, whoever would be refusing to follow the instructions of an LEO. They would be setting a horrible example for every student their by refusing to obey the law. Based on your NONE OF THAT MATTERS comment, my scenario isn't far off from what could have been the issue at this game.
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Post by warriorsblue on Feb 18, 2019 12:17:47 GMT -6
I was not there,,, but if I remember right,, the coach was worried about not having time for his kids to properly stretch,, properly warm up to get ready for the game. It would be different if the visiting team was INFORMED before they even arrived where they could make arrangements to stretch and warm up properly for the game. Most times,,, you just go out earlier to get that done or borrow a baseball field or something to get it done. When it comes to the safety of the players, they come first before playing 48 minutes of a football game instead of giving the field to the band. Now if the principal would have said look,, we have a grass field right behind the visitors stands where you can continue to warm up and we will turn the baseball lights on so you can properly warm up,, then I think she would have had a case. That is my memory of the situation.
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Post by BGH on Feb 18, 2019 14:18:22 GMT -6
I am proposing that under the guidelines, the pregame situation is the exact same as the ridiculous in game situation. You seemingly haven't understood during this discussion.
I have understood everything until you started the silly talk. What you seemingly haven't understood is that it does not matter whether it is pregame, middle of the game, or post-game. The coach may have been within LHSAA guidelines for being on the field at that time and the principal may have been at fault for sicking the police on him (I still think the principal has ultimate authority on what takes place on that campus and no LHSAA rule can override that). NONE OF THAT MATTERS.
But for the sake of argument let's go ahead and that say everybody involved was at fault except the coach. Still, none of that matters because once the coach refused to follow the instructions of a police officer an entirely new incident, separate from all the prior supposed wrongdoings by any and everyone else, began because that coach committed a misdemeanor. That coach set a horrible example for every student at that game by refusing to obey the law. You keep worrying about what will happen if we don't have enough officials, but what do you think is going to happen if everyone defies the police and we don't have anymore police officers.
Please remember, this is the original post of this thread that I responded to: LHSAA meeting addressed the many fights at games, threats against refs, fights with the Police. It is sad to watch our society continue to get worse, God help us... I think my response, accusing the LHSAA of condoning disobedience to law enforcement, was appropriate for that post. You are the one who brought officiating into this, not me.
Then don't you see then, by your very statement "does not matter whether it is pregame, middle of game, post game" my silly scenario regarding the penalty stands, and your reply is NONE OF THAT MATTERS. So you are saying that should an LEO decide that he believes that a penalty occurred and ordered the team back 10 yards, you would support the coaches to just accept that. Remember your exact words are NONE OF THAT MATTERS. The coach, officials, whoever would be refusing to follow the instructions of an LEO. They would be setting a horrible example for every student their by refusing to obey the law. Based on your NONE OF THAT MATTERS comment, my scenario isn't far off from what could have been the issue at this game.
So you are saying that should an LEO decide that he believes that a penalty occurred and ordered the team back 10 yards, you would support the coaches to just accept that.
It seems like I saw that happen one time but I can't quite remembers where. Oh yeah, now I remember .......... it was on an episode of the Twilight Zone, which seems to be where you have recently taken up residence.
I have not said anything of the sort, but let's play your silly little game because i want you to know what to do in case this happens to you. If a police officer were to do this, everyone on that field and in the stands would immediately know something was wrong with this officer. The LAST thing you need to do is get in the officers face and tell him you know your rights. So my advice to you would be not to confront him but to pull your team aside and wait until the other authorities have the men in white coats come pick up that officer up. You may want to consider having the men in white coats check you out while they are there, because you are obviously having trouble distinguishing reality.
Your ridiculous scenario is so far removed from what happened that night that it did not deserve a response. My "NONE OF THAT MATTERS" comment was meant to show you that no matter whose fault it was that got them to the point where the coach and police interacated, once the coach refused to follow instructions he was responsible for his actions.
Since you seem intent on having a scenario where a policeman is involved in the middle of a game, I will give you one to think about. What would you do if the police stopped a game and asked everyone, including fans, to leave the field or gym in an orderly fashion. Would you sit there and argue with him, or would you comply?
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Post by BGH on Feb 18, 2019 14:35:33 GMT -6
I was not there,,, but if I remember right,, the coach was worried about not having time for his kids to properly stretch,, properly warm up to get ready for the game. It would be different if the visiting team was INFORMED before they even arrived where they could make arrangements to stretch and warm up properly for the game. Most times,,, you just go out earlier to get that done or borrow a baseball field or something to get it done. When it comes to the safety of the players, they come first before playing 48 minutes of a football game instead of giving the field to the band. Now if the principal would have said look,, we have a grass field right behind the visitors stands where you can continue to warm up and we will turn the baseball lights on so you can properly warm up,, then I think she would have had a case. That is my memory of the situation.
It was a mess all the way around. From what I read the friction was caused by two female principals that apparently had a history with each other from their days of competing in high school. The home team principal did submit the proper request to the other team days before the game, but the visiting principal insists they did not agree to the request therefore it was invalid.(just my recollection)
It is a shame they let their personalities get in thy way. It seems like I recall that they were going to do some tribute to the military (the stadium was just a couple of hundred yards from Barksdale Air Force Base).
According to reports, they were offered an alternative place to keep warming up if they wished.
Regardless of all that nonsense, I just can't get beyond the fact that the coach refused to comply and forced the police to remove him front the field.
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Post by retired on Feb 18, 2019 14:56:03 GMT -6
I was not there,,, but if I remember right,, the coach was worried about not having time for his kids to properly stretch,, properly warm up to get ready for the game. It would be different if the visiting team was INFORMED before they even arrived where they could make arrangements to stretch and warm up properly for the game. Most times,,, you just go out earlier to get that done or borrow a baseball field or something to get it done. When it comes to the safety of the players, they come first before playing 48 minutes of a football game instead of giving the field to the band. Now if the principal would have said look,, we have a grass field right behind the visitors stands where you can continue to warm up and we will turn the baseball lights on so you can properly warm up,, then I think she would have had a case. That is my memory of the situation.
It was a mess all the way around. From what I read the friction was caused by two female principals that apparently had a history with each other from their days of competing in high school. The home team principal did submit the proper request to the other team days before the game, but the visiting principal insists they did not agree to the request therefore it was invalid.
It is a shame they let their personalities get in thy way. It seems like I recall that they were going to do some tribute to the militruy (the stadium was just a couple of hundred yards from Barksdale Air Force Base).
According to reports, they were offered an alternative place to keep warming up if they wished.
Regardless of all that nonsense, I just can't get beyond the fact that the coach refused to comply and forced the police to remove him front the field.
Why can't you get passed the fact that the officer very well may have had no right or cause to remove him? To answer your other question, I would absolutely leave in a peaceful and orderly manner under the assumption that the officers were trying to serve the public and keep me safe. That is worlds different than the situation you described as the LHSAA supporting civil unrest.
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Post by knowitall on Feb 18, 2019 16:13:16 GMT -6
I was not there,,, but if I remember right,, the coach was worried about not having time for his kids to properly stretch,, properly warm up to get ready for the game. It would be different if the visiting team was INFORMED before they even arrived where they could make arrangements to stretch and warm up properly for the game. Most times,,, you just go out earlier to get that done or borrow a baseball field or something to get it done. When it comes to the safety of the players, they come first before playing 48 minutes of a football game instead of giving the field to the band. Now if the principal would have said look,, we have a grass field right behind the visitors stands where you can continue to warm up and we will turn the baseball lights on so you can properly warm up,, then I think she would have had a case. That is my memory of the situation.
It was a mess all the way around. From what I read the friction was caused by two female principals that apparently had a history with each other from their days of competing in high school. The home team principal did submit the proper request to the other team days before the game, but the visiting principal insists they did not agree to the request therefore it was invalid.
It is a shame they let their personalities get in thy way. It seems like I recall that they were going to do some tribute to the militruy (the stadium was just a couple of hundred yards from Barksdale Air Force Base).
According to reports, they were offered an alternative place to keep warming up if they wished.
Regardless of all that nonsense, I just can't get beyond the fact that the coach refused to comply and forced the police to remove him front the field.
I know one of the main reasons and evidence that helped in the favor of the coach if I am not mistaken was the fact that earlier in the week of the playoff matchup, the home teams school and administration sent a fax to the visiting school with the itinerary of what they needed to bring, where they needed to park for visiting fans, locker room setup, parking for buses and also a time stamp of when they need to be on and off the field before pregame. The visiting team obeyed the request and therefore started its pregame routine based off the itinerary of what was asked of them, it was the home team who decided to change things up which resulted in the big chaos of all the mess that ensued, I am not blaming just one party here, but things were based off of what was asked of one, and changed by another, all in all, it could of been settled much easier then what occurred.
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Post by coachtanklo on Feb 18, 2019 16:13:41 GMT -6
Kamala, I hear u loud and clear !!!! We go out of our way as coaches to make sure our kids get opportunities to play freshmen and JV games . No doubt MORE money and less time than coaching . I enjoy coaching. When it gets too much , I believe officiating will be my next calling . Like someone said earlier , no OFFICIALS ,no game . There is an old saying , Fans want to be coaches , coaches want to be officials , and officials want to be fans . Lots of truth to this . I try to tell all my graduating seniors to give officiating a try . It’s not as easy as it looks , but there are a lot of openings and the money is pretty good . NO , it is not for everyone .
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Post by BGH on Feb 18, 2019 16:15:42 GMT -6
It was a mess all the way around. From what I read the friction was caused by two female principals that apparently had a history with each other from their days of competing in high school. The home team principal did submit the proper request to the other team days before the game, but the visiting principal insists they did not agree to the request therefore it was invalid.
It is a shame they let their personalities get in thy way. It seems like I recall that they were going to do some tribute to the militruy (the stadium was just a couple of hundred yards from Barksdale Air Force Base).
According to reports, they were offered an alternative place to keep warming up if they wished.
Regardless of all that nonsense, I just can't get beyond the fact that the coach refused to comply and forced the police to remove him front the field.
Why can't you get passed the fact that the officer very well may have had no right or cause to remove him? To answer your other question, I would absolutely leave in a peaceful and orderly manner under the assumption that the officers were trying to serve the public and keep me safe. That is worlds different than the situation you described as the LHSAA supporting civil unrest.
Why can't you get passed the fact that the officer very well may have had no right or cause to remove him?
That may very well be true, but is does not change the wrong done by the coach. Surely you have heard that two wrongs do not make a right. I have already pointed out to you that every state in the Union has a statute on the books that is worded one way or another that failure to comply with a law enforcement officers instructions is a misdemeanor. The theory is, to comply and we will sort it out later. If you let every individual decide whether or not they want to comply, you have anarchy. Same thing in your classrooms.
To answer your other question, I would absolutely leave in a peaceful and orderly manner under the assumption that the officers were trying to serve the public and keep me safe. You have somewhat restored my faith in you. Suppose it was a rogue cop that asked to clear the field and he did it for no good reason at all? It does not matter, just comply and we can sort it out later.
That is worlds different than the situation you described as the LHSAA supporting civil unrest. To my knowledge the LHSAA said nothing about the coach committing a misdemeanor (whether he was charged or not). Once he had publicly committed that act they should have addressed it publicly. In my view, when you ignore something like that, you are condoning it.
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Post by retired on Feb 18, 2019 17:34:50 GMT -6
Why can't you get passed the fact that the officer very well may have had no right or cause to remove him? To answer your other question, I would absolutely leave in a peaceful and orderly manner under the assumption that the officers were trying to serve the public and keep me safe. That is worlds different than the situation you described as the LHSAA supporting civil unrest.
Why can't you get passed the fact that the officer very well may have had no right or cause to remove him?
That may very well be true, but is does not change the wrong done by the coach. Surely you have heard that two wrongs do not make a right. I have already pointed out to you that every state in the Union has a statute on the books that is worded one way or another that failure to comply with a law enforcement officers instructions is a misdemeanor. The theory is, to comply and we will sort it out later. If you let every individual decide whether or not they want to comply, you have anarchy. Same thing in your classrooms.
To answer your other question, I would absolutely leave in a peaceful and orderly manner under the assumption that the officers were trying to serve the public and keep me safe. You have somewhat restored my faith in you. Suppose it was a rogue cop that asked to clear the field and he did it for no good reason at all? It does not matter, just comply and we can sort it out later.
That is worlds different than the situation you described as the LHSAA supporting civil unrest. To my knowledge the LHSAA said nothing about the coach committing a misdemeanor (whether he was charged or not). Once he had publicly committed that act they should have addressed it publicly. In my view, when you ignore something like that, you are condoning it.
There may be no "later" though. Pull the kids off, routine changes, you lose the game... oh well, sort it out later? Don't get me wrong, right now sitting in the calm environment of my home and having read what was going on I would probably have said "sure, no problem" and pulled my kids. But I cant guarantee you that I would have done so in the charged pregame environment, especially if I felt my students were being wronged and if the officer had no legal basis or jurisdiction in the matter. From my perspective as an ex coach, the officer asking the visiting team to leave the field during warm ups for (from the HCs perspective) an unscheduled or unagreed upon event is every bit as absurd as the officer saying that a penalty should be called "or else" or a TD should be awarded "or else" or whatever other absurd situation you could think of. I can see that someone whose perspective is solely from the stands would be different.
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Post by BGH on Feb 18, 2019 22:32:52 GMT -6
Why can't you get passed the fact that the officer very well may have had no right or cause to remove him?
That may very well be true, but is does not change the wrong done by the coach. Surely you have heard that two wrongs do not make a right. I have already pointed out to you that every state in the Union has a statute on the books that is worded one way or another that failure to comply with a law enforcement officers instructions is a misdemeanor. The theory is, to comply and we will sort it out later. If you let every individual decide whether or not they want to comply, you have anarchy. Same thing in your classrooms.
To answer your other question, I would absolutely leave in a peaceful and orderly manner under the assumption that the officers were trying to serve the public and keep me safe. You have somewhat restored my faith in you. Suppose it was a rogue cop that asked to clear the field and he did it for no good reason at all? It does not matter, just comply and we can sort it out later.
That is worlds different than the situation you described as the LHSAA supporting civil unrest. To my knowledge the LHSAA said nothing about the coach committing a misdemeanor (whether he was charged or not). Once he had publicly committed that act they should have addressed it publicly. In my view, when you ignore something like that, you are condoning it.
There may be no "later" though. Pull the kids off, routine changes, you lose the game... oh well, sort it out later? Don't get me wrong, right now sitting in the calm environment of my home and having read what was going on I would probably have said "sure, no problem" and pulled my kids. But I cant guarantee you that I would have done so in the charged pregame environment, especially if I felt my students were being wronged and if the officer had no legal basis or jurisdiction in the matter. From my perspective as an ex coach, the officer asking the visiting team to leave the field during warm ups for (from the HCs perspective) an unscheduled or unagreed upon event is every bit as absurd as the officer saying that a penalty should be called "or else" or a TD should be awarded "or else" or whatever other absurd situation you could think of. I can see that someone whose perspective is solely from the stands would be different. I can see that someone whose perspective is solely from the stands would be different. In other words, us dumb, uninformed, know nothings, should just shut up because we have no idea what a coach or an official goes through. Come to think of it, teachers, policemen, mailmen, and firemen seem to have that same attitude. Must be a public employee disease. The rest of us proles could never understand.
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Post by retired on Feb 19, 2019 6:56:04 GMT -6
There may be no "later" though. Pull the kids off, routine changes, you lose the game... oh well, sort it out later? Don't get me wrong, right now sitting in the calm environment of my home and having read what was going on I would probably have said "sure, no problem" and pulled my kids. But I cant guarantee you that I would have done so in the charged pregame environment, especially if I felt my students were being wronged and if the officer had no legal basis or jurisdiction in the matter. From my perspective as an ex coach, the officer asking the visiting team to leave the field during warm ups for (from the HCs perspective) an unscheduled or unagreed upon event is every bit as absurd as the officer saying that a penalty should be called "or else" or a TD should be awarded "or else" or whatever other absurd situation you could think of. I can see that someone whose perspective is solely from the stands would be different. I can see that someone whose perspective is solely from the stands would be different. In other words, us dumb, uninformed, know nothings, should just shut up because we have no idea what a coach or an official goes through. Come to think of it, teachers, policemen, mailmen, and firemen seem to have that same attitude. Must be a public employee disease. The rest of us proles could never understand. To be honest.. no. You wouldn't. That doesn't make you dumb, know nothing or uninformed. It simply makes you someone who has not been through that experience.
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Post by BGH on Feb 19, 2019 15:50:02 GMT -6
I can see that someone whose perspective is solely from the stands would be different. In other words, us dumb, uninformed, know nothings, should just shut up because we have no idea what a coach or an official goes through. Come to think of it, teachers, policemen, mailmen, and firemen seem to have that same attitude. Must be a public employee disease. The rest of us proles could never understand. To be honest.. no. You wouldn't. That doesn't make you dumb, know nothing or uninformed. It simply makes you someone who has not been through that experience. That's it. That is the attitude I was talking about.
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Post by retired on Feb 19, 2019 21:46:29 GMT -6
To be honest.. no. You wouldn't. That doesn't make you dumb, know nothing or uninformed. It simply makes you someone who has not been through that experience. That's it. That is the attitude I was talking about.
It isn't an attitude. It is the reality. Come on man. Have you ever run into a burning building to save a complete stranger or their possessions? NOPE? Then you don't know what it is like and you have not been through that experience. Have you ever jumped out of a helicopter into a hot LZ in Vietnam? Nope? Then you don't know what it is like and you have not been through that experience. Have you ever led a team out onto the field for a game after having spent the last 6 months working with them, guiding, molding them etc? NOPE? Then you don't what it is like and have not been through that experience. Have you ever argued a case in the Supreme Court, knowing the outcome would potentially affect the entire population of the country? Nope? Then you don't know what it is like and have not been through that experience. How is that "an attitude"? That was just a stupid statement to make . I don't use this word lightly, and it is
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Post by BGH on Feb 20, 2019 9:15:30 GMT -6
That's it. That is the attitude I was talking about.
It isn't an attitude. It is the reality. Come on man. Have you ever run into a burning building to save a complete stranger or their possessions? NOPE? Then you don't know what it is like and you have not been through that experience. Have you ever jumped out of a helicopter into a hot LZ in Vietnam? Nope? Then you don't know what it is like and you have not been through that experience. Have you ever led a team out onto the field for a game after having spent the last 6 months working with them, guiding, molding them etc? NOPE? Then you don't what it is like and have not been through that experience. Have you ever argued a case in the Supreme Court, knowing the outcome would potentially affect the entire population of the country? Nope? Then you don't know what it is like and have not been through that experience. How is that "an attitude"? That was just a stupid statement to make . I don't use this word lightly, and it is
You should have told me that from the very beginning. I did not realize coaching was like running into a burning building or landing in a hot LZ. Now I can see why you feel it is OK to ignore the police for the good of your team. I guess obeying the police is just for us proles, not Party members.
All of this, just because a coach was so arrogant and self-important that he would not move his team to another area to warm up. Maybe if he had done that, he would have given his team a better chance to win.
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Post by CLEAN on Mar 4, 2019 10:05:09 GMT -6
I spoke with a baseball/softball official last week.
He gets $85 per game plus 20-40 dollars for travel, depending on distance.
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Post by bhossmac on Mar 4, 2019 15:06:52 GMT -6
I spoke with a baseball/softball official last week. He gets $85 per game plus 20-40 dollars for travel, depending on distance. He's getting a little something on the side or is charging schools incorrectly. The softball max is $65 per game, and the baseball max is $75 per game. And I'd love that travel arrangement.
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Post by warpig on Mar 5, 2019 9:23:23 GMT -6
LHSAA meeting addressed the many fights at games, threats against refs, fights with the Police. It is sad to watch our society continue to get worse, God help us...
The LHSAA has openly condoned disobedience to Law Enforcement and school administration authorities. Why would they expect anything different at their games? You reap what you sow.
When has the LHSAA openly condoned disrespect for LEO or Administration?? Can you give me examples, because I guess I missed that press release
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Post by warpig on Mar 5, 2019 9:39:24 GMT -6
You keep stating "following the law" as if there was any legal matter here. There doesn't seem to be one. You said my scenario was silly (it was), but not much sillier than a principal ordering police to remove a team from the field during warm ups. Lets extend the silliness, lets say the visiting team's principal asked law enforcement to arrest the LEOs that were interfering with her team's ability to warm up. Could be a great standoff! See how ridiculous this could get. Now, if the officials ejected a coach and he refused to leave probably the proper thing for them to do is simply suspend the game and leave--let the state handle it from there (most likely resulting in a forfeit). Keep in mind though, that is the officials making that call, not the principal of the home team. All of that said-- I think you and some others here are missing the point. The LHSAA is trying to explain that the official shortage is going to have an impact, and when asked why officials are leaving their associations and why others are not joining the ranks, the abuse is a major reason. As you stated...you reap what you sow. When schedules are impacted because of a lack of officials... well sportsfans, you reap what you sow.
You keep stating "following the law" as if there was any legal matter here. There doesn't seem to be one. Each State's statutes are written differently, but in every state, including Washington DC, it is a misdemeanor not to follow the instructions of a law enforcement officer. So when the officer asked the coach to leave the field and the coach refused, he committed a misdemeanor. No, we are not a police state where any rogue cop can impose his will on any citizen, but the police are given a wide range of latitude when they are simply asking for cooperation.
I do find it fascinating that you are more apt to obey an OFFICIAL than a lowly policeman. At least now I am beginning to understand why OFFICIALS are so dang arrogant.
At an LHSAA sanctioned event, the LEO’s aren’t initially in control of the proceedings. They are for crowd control & backup to those who ARE in charge- the officials. When they stepped in before the officials to make a decision, they did so without legal recourse. The coach has every right to have his team on the field, because those in charge had not deemed it necessary to ask him to leave. In any instance that we are referring to, though, you have failed to show where the LHSAA openly condones disrespect of LEO or administrators. Rather, they established precedence that the proper protocol must be followed in situations such as that. Changing your initial statement to “in my opinion” only shows that you overstated your original post. LHSAA has never Openly Condoned any such activity
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Post by retired on Mar 5, 2019 9:40:25 GMT -6
The LHSAA has openly condoned disobedience to Law Enforcement and school administration authorities. Why would they expect anything different at their games? You reap what you sow.
When has the LHSAA openly condoned disrespect for LEO or Administration?? Can you give me examples, because I guess I missed that press release Read through the thread? BGH claims that when a visiting coach failed to comply with the unagreed upon directives being issued by a LEO at the behest of the home school admin, that is an example of disobedience to LEOs. Even though in a subsequent post, he admits that "it may be true that the LEO had no right to remove him, and was wrong in doing so" he still feels you have to listen to him. As far as the "attitude" he refers to, I am not sure how someone simply pointing out that when one does not have the experience doing something, they generally don't know how it feels is some type of "attitude".
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