|
Kbanes
Jun 15, 2019 4:45:29 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by indy on Jun 15, 2019 4:45:29 GMT -6
This appears to me that it is a case in which you don't want to act the same fundamentally, but you wanted to be treated the same.
Why should our member schools be treated differently?
A public school is able to enroll 100% of people in their zone A private school doesn’t have this ability
With what you are saying you wanna hold the school to just it’s zone without the ability to get all the kids in the zone you may cause the school to close it’s doors
Please see previous examples I’ve provided on reality of situation
Fishing and gas station
|
|
|
Kbanes
Jun 15, 2019 7:38:01 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by indy on Jun 15, 2019 7:38:01 GMT -6
All State baseball came out today
Breaux Bridge had a good team
They got an all state transfer pitcher Not St. Thomas More not Teurlings
And I’m sure when 5a comes out they’ll have one too at Sam Houston
|
|
|
Kbanes
Jun 15, 2019 14:03:33 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by kennypowers on Jun 15, 2019 14:03:33 GMT -6
Think about this for the public. They can do majority to minority, magnets, file homeless. And to my knowledge, private’s aren’t allowed any of those advantages.. But lord forbid a kid move from Alaska and live on the wrong side on the road/river close to a private and ruled ineligible.
|
|
|
Kbanes
Jun 15, 2019 14:35:35 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by indy on Jun 15, 2019 14:35:35 GMT -6
They also can do administrative transfers
|
|
|
Kbanes
Jun 16, 2019 5:59:37 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by indy on Jun 16, 2019 5:59:37 GMT -6
As expected Sam Houston has a transfer pitcher on the AllState team
|
|
|
Kbanes
Jun 16, 2019 8:30:41 GMT -6
Post by kbanes on Jun 16, 2019 8:30:41 GMT -6
This appears to me that it is a case in which you don't want to act the same fundamentally, but you wanted to be treated the same. Why should our member schools be treated differently? A public school is able to enroll 100% of people in their zone A private school doesn’t have this ability With what you are saying you wanna hold the school to just it’s zone without the ability to get all the kids in the zone you may cause the school to close it’s doors Please see previous examples I’ve provided on reality of situation Fishing and gas station As I understand it, what you stated above can be restated with a little more clarity as: A public school is required to enroll 100% of the people in their zone (if those people so desire). A private school does not have that requirement.
Is this not true? I'm willing to take some coaching on this.
"With what you are saying you wanna hold the school to just it’s zone without the ability to get all the kids in the zone you may cause the school to close it’s doors". I'm not even sure what this means. Are you saying that I want to hold a private school to just its zone but not allow it to get all of the kids in that zone? And that some how this may cause the private school to close? I may need some clarification on this point.
The definition of Select and Non-Select from the LHSAA By-laws:
14.3.2 A non-select admission school shall be a public school that has a designated attendance zone and a charter school whose charter mandates that the school have an open admission policy and does not include admission requirements for the selection and retention of its students. For playoff competition, schools that are classified as non-select schools shall compete in Classes 5A, 4A, 3A, 2A, and1A.
14.3.3 A select admission school shall be a public or non-public school that has an admission policy to select the students who attend the school. Select admission schools shall include: 1.All non-public schools 2.All university laboratory schools 3.All magnet schools 4.Dual-curriculum schools that include at least 25% of their enrollment as select admission students who do not live in the designated attendance zone 5.Charter schools whose charters include admission requirements for the selection and retention of its students
To me, this defines a basic (and real) difference between select and non-select. The two are not the same. And while I personally don't know the proper solution on how to treat these two systems fairly, I have no doubt that treating them as equal and the same is not the correct answer.
I'm going to offer a couple of statements, and I would like for you to tell me if they are true or not (because I'm really not sure):
A player can enroll at Catholic-BR for the unexpressed desire to play on the football team, even if he lives in Port Allen, La., a separate parish. This player can receive financial assistance from the school based on need. A player from Central La. cannot enroll in Zachary High school, as he does not reside in that district. (Lets discard for a minute the argument that people cheat the system all the time. I can't make an argument based on peoples ability to cheat.)
|
|
|
Kbanes
Jun 16, 2019 9:04:44 GMT -6
Post by kbanes on Jun 16, 2019 9:04:44 GMT -6
And this is from the earlier thread that you asked me to review: As far as what you quoted on the constitution this was changed to due split vote. So it’s something to justify what was done.
Again if it was so good do it on both sides.
Again, I can't really offer a reasoning on this until i can get a school count in the Select teams in each Classification. Can someone help me out here?
Next the schools with 57 enrollment or other really low numbers Two points first our state offers 8 man football Second they are the smallest not a lot you could do
Personally you’re right i would favor six classifications and all together which would shrink that gap So, your correction for small teams that compete against schools with 4 times their numbers is "not a lot you can do"
Next 5a gaps Again biggest and therefore gonna be bigger What does this mean? Yes. The biggest schools are going to be bigger. This does not address the fairness of having some 5A schools compete against schools twice their size.
Also, 6 class plan which would shrink the gaps
Which, conveniently, frees you from the problem that got us here, the difference between Select and Non-Select. I can understand why you like this solution.
Also, you can’t compare situation where double enrollment in 400 group and double enrollment in 1000 group
Why can't I? The only reason that I can see for not making this comparison is that it is not convenient for your argument.
Someone else backed up this point on a previous post. (I am not familiar with this post, so I can't address it.)
Last and it seems there is the problem The “selects” draw their enrollment differently so therefore it’s ok ? Have you ever attended “select” school? No, but my children have. My son played one year of baseball. Their attendance was before the split.
A “select” school doesn’t no “select” can enroll 100% of kids in their zone (Not sure what this means.)
And if you can’t see that “not select” schools are getting out of zone kids too I will assume that you are discussing the legal way that this occurs, with the 25% rule (14.3.3.4 Dual-curriculum schools that include at least 25% of their enrollment as select admission students who do not live in the designated attendance zone). I'm not crazy about this rule, and I wished that there was no dual-curriculum schools. My children attended a Magnet program that was destroyed by Dual-curriculum.
|
|
|
Post by indy on Jun 16, 2019 9:34:15 GMT -6
And this is from the earlier thread that you asked me to review:
As far as what you quoted on the constitution this was changed to due split vote. So it’s something to justify what was done.
Again if it was so good do it on both sides.
Again, I can't really offer a reasoning on this until i can get a school count in the Select teams in each Classification. Can someone help me out here?
it's a move done because fewer than 8 teams exist in 3a and in 4a it's not fair to those that are in 3a i feel that we can agree that both a bracket under 8 teams and combing aren't good options
Next the schools with 57 enrollment or other really low numbers
Two points first our state offers 8 man football
Second they are the smallest not a lot you could do
Personally you’re right i would favor six classifications and all together which would shrink that gap
So, your correction for small teams that compete against schools with 4 times their numbers is "not a lot you can do"
Again going back to size of brackets there is a reason by B & C don't have football if we created a league of the sixteen smallest football teams by enrollment this would still have them playing people that are three times there size this is what i mean by "not a lot you can do"
Next 5a gaps
Again biggest and therefore gonna be bigger
What does this mean? Yes. The biggest schools are going to be bigger. This does not address the fairness of having some 5A schools compete against schools twice their size.
Also, 6 class plan which would shrink the gaps
Which, conveniently, frees you from the problem that got us here, the difference between Select and Non-Select. I can understand why you like this solution.
Also, you can’t compare situation where double enrollment in 400 group and double enrollment in 1000 group
Why can't I? The only reason that I can see for not making this comparison is that it is not convenient for your argument.
Someone else backed up this point on a previous post. (I am not familiar with this post, so I can't address it.)
Reason that it's not applicable is that once you start getting to around 900 you going to have more and more outlier of human achievement such as forty time height and weight. Look at how many 2a schools have a 300 pound offensive lineman now think about how many 5a do. With a school of 400 it's likely not to have a boy who's over 250. Now when it's a school of 800 you should. Standing 4a and 5a teams side by side doesn't illustrate much difference in appearance of the team but to do 2a or 3a vs 4a or 5a you'll see a difference.
Last and it seems there is the problem
The “selects” draw their enrollment differently so therefore it’s ok ?
Have you ever attended “select” school?
No, but my children have. My son played one year of baseball. Their attendance was before the split.
Ok so reason i asked this was because typically what you see is these kids have gone to school together forever. It's not some new bus of kids who show up to play sports all the sudden. I was really neat to see the pictures of our nd football team from when they were 4 & 5 years old starting catholic school.
A “select” school doesn’t no “select” can enroll 100% of kids in their zone (Not sure what this means.)
So what i mean by this is any kid in Crowley's school zone can say i'm going there and be in. Busing is provided and not tuition is charged. Not every kid in crowley's school zone can afford to attend nd. Again some don't choose to attend nd just like some don't choose to attend crowley high. And as far as zones go 5 of Iota's baseball starters live in crowley's zone and choose and are allowed to attend Iota.
And if you can’t see that “not select” schools are getting out of zone kids too
I will assume that you are discussing the legal way that this occurs, with the 25% rule (14.3.3.4 Dual-curriculum schools that include at least 25% of their enrollment as select admission students who do not live in the designated attendance zone). I'm not crazy about this rule, and I wished that there was no dual-curriculum schools. My children attended a Magnet program that was destroyed by Dual-curriculum. This 25% rule is made up just like combining the 3a & 4a brackets. No i'm not referring to this. The LEAs provide exceptions for kids to hop zones is what i meant. Whether is the stud baseball player in New Iberia going out of zone. The stud in Jeanerette going out of zone to New Iberia. Or in lafayette parish where acadiana has the business academy which allows them to draw from more kids than teurlings or st. thomas more. To illustrate how much of a fraud 25% is you could have a school of 600. So 149 kids make up just under 25%. How many football teams have that many kids none do. Let's say 90 play football 20 play basketball 30 play baseball and 9 are track only. This shows that you could be under 25% and have four sports team consisting of only out of zone kids.
Seems like we are having good dialogue so let's keep it going
|
|
|
Kbanes
Jun 16, 2019 21:53:53 GMT -6
Post by kbanes on Jun 16, 2019 21:53:53 GMT -6
Indy,
I just don't understand why you are so hung up on the 3A/4A thing. I certainly understand the the bottom 3A is at a disadvantage to the top 4A. But, despite your attempts to say otherwise, a 1000 student 5A team is at a disadvantage to a 2000 student 5A team. We also know that being 800 students smaller (Zachary) is not insurmountable against Dutchtowon, Denham Springs, and Catholic.
It just seems like there are more persuasive arguments available to than an arbitrary classification designation. (I doubt that I would agree with any of them, but they are not irrelevant.)
Your discussion on students being in school together forever is only mildly important to me. In my mind, it doesn't really matter to me when a private school gets a student. The rule that defines a difference in a Select school and a Non-Select school is still the same. And a 2nd grader can choose to attend a particular private school, but a second grader in Central still can't go to an elementary school in Zachary, and that rule follows him through high school.
Not every kid in crowley's school zone can afford to attend nd. Correct. But if the school so chooses, they can offer kids of their choice financial aid. In fact, under certain circumstances (that I don't quite understand), that financial aid does not have to be based on financial need. Per the LHSAA Constitution:
2.4.8 Assistance Based on Criteria Other Than Need: A school that provides financial assistance to students based on any criteria other than financial need must make an annual report to the LHSAA Office. The report shall include: 1.The name of each student-athlete who is receiving such assistance; 2.The criterion upon which the assistance is based (must have no relationship to athletic interest, potential or performance); 3.The amount of the assistance;and 4.The source of the funding (e.g.foundation, private donation,etc.) for the assistance.
I wished that I had more info on this.
I don't understand the situation between Crowley and Iota, so I can't offer an opinion on it. But here is the difference, as you explain it. If I am in the Crowley district and I choose to go to Iota, I can, with no tuition charged. Is this correct? Would it also be correct that I can demand entrance to ND, with no tuition being charged? I suspect not.
|
|
|
Kbanes
Jun 17, 2019 8:08:56 GMT -6
Post by indy on Jun 17, 2019 8:08:56 GMT -6
Indy,
I just don't understand why you are so hung up on the 3A/4A thing. I certainly understand the the bottom 3A is at a disadvantage to the top 4A. But, despite your attempts to say otherwise, a 1000 student 5A team is at a disadvantage to a 2000 student 5A team. We also know that being 800 students smaller (Zachary) is not insurmountable against Dutchtowon, Denham Springs, and Catholic.
so this is the deal with that if playing up wasn't a big deal they why does a 3a get two bonus points for playing a 4a. With your 5a example you're getting to a point where the kids on the field will look the same maybe the larger one will have one or two extra but the team on the field will look the same
It just seems like there are more persuasive arguments available to than an arbitrary classification designation. (I doubt that I would agree with any of them, but they are not irrelevant.)
Your discussion on students being in school together forever is only mildly important to me. In my mind, it doesn't really matter to me when a private school gets a student. The rule that defines a difference in a Select school and a Non-Select school is still the same. And a 2nd grader can choose to attend a particular private school, but a second grader in Central still can't go to an elementary school in Zachary, and that rule follows him through high school.
The reason i mention those kids being together at 4 or 5 years old because that is the reality. You could play golf and hit a hole in one, you probably won't though. This is the case with the catholic school picking up the out of zone public school kid. They don't come. You need to do more research if you really think the central kid can't go to zachary.
Not every kid in crowley's school zone can afford to attend nd. Correct. But if the school so chooses, they can offer kids of their choice financial aid. In fact, under certain circumstances (that I don't quite understand), that financial aid does not have to be based on financial need. Per the LHSAA Constitution:
2.4.8 Assistance Based on Criteria Other Than Need: A school that provides financial assistance to students based on any criteria other than financial need must make an annual report to the LHSAA Office. The report shall include: 1.The name of each student-athlete who is receiving such assistance;
2.The criterion upon which the assistance is based (must have no relationship to athletic interest, potential or performance);
3.The amount of the assistance;and
4.The source of the funding (e.g.foundation, private donation,etc.) for the assistance.
I wished that I had more info on this.
Finacial aid is only need based and it's a limited amount. If you every find something that is more than 25% let me know but it won't be in the diocese of lafayette. Look at it from a business point of view if you offer the service free to one how do you justify charging others. People would find out then ask for the same thing. Then you close your doors since no one is paying.
I don't understand the situation between Crowley and Iota, so I can't offer an opinion on it. But here is the difference, as you explain it. If I am in the Crowley district and I choose to go to Iota, I can, with no tuition charged. Is this correct? Would it also be correct that I can demand entrance to ND, with no tuition being charged? I suspect not.
The kid in crowley can choose Iota and attend with no tuition charged. The kid in crowley can choose nd and will pay tuition. So what advantage does ND have over Iota in this situation. And please don't give me the standard line of we can turn a kid away it's just stupid. Pulbic shcools do have to take the kids. Now they can start the process to have the kid expelled if he doesn't comply which is cumbersome. However no rule exist that the kid has to be allowed to play sports. The fact that the kid is allowed illustrates the point that the public school would rather have the student thus invalidating the point the private school is better off without him.
|
|
|
Kbanes
Jun 17, 2019 9:07:52 GMT -6
Post by iamray on Jun 17, 2019 9:07:52 GMT -6
Finacial aid is only need based and it's a limited amount. If you every find something that is more than 25% let me know but it won't be in the diocese of lafayette. Look at it from a business point of view if you offer the service free to one how do you justify charging others. People would find out then ask for the same thing. Then you close your doors since no one is paying.
Some kids can help you win titles, some cannot. This is all the justification some schools need.
|
|
|
Kbanes
Jun 17, 2019 9:20:26 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by indy on Jun 17, 2019 9:20:26 GMT -6
Ask Redemptorist in Baton Rouge how well it worked out for them not charging kids
Then having no basis on who to charge and not charge
|
|
|
Kbanes
Jun 17, 2019 9:21:13 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by indy on Jun 17, 2019 9:21:13 GMT -6
And it’s financial need
Per lhsaa policy you have to use a third party organization from an lhsaa approved list
|
|
|
Kbanes
Jun 17, 2019 9:22:09 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by indy on Jun 17, 2019 9:22:09 GMT -6
When a public schools recruits an out of zone player Y’all do realize a group of tax payers paid for that kid, right?
|
|
|
Kbanes
Jun 17, 2019 10:42:14 GMT -6
Post by kbanes on Jun 17, 2019 10:42:14 GMT -6
And it’s financial need
Per lhsaa policy you have to use a third party organization from an lhsaa approved list
It is not always financial need. As I referenced in LHSAA Constitution line item 2.4.8, there is a specific exception to allow for financial aid, for reasons other than financial need. I have no idea what these reason could be , and I would love to get examples. But it is allowed by rule.
Look at it from a business point of view if you offer the service free to one how do you justify charging others. People would find out then ask for the same thing. Then you close your doors since no one is paying.
Its done all of the time. There are millions of dollars in scholarships given in colleges, primary, and secondary schools every year. For various reasons ranging from charity to an exchange of services. Play in the band? Get a scholarship. Assist in bringing valuable research into an institution? Get a scholarship. Play football? There are only approximately 10,000 that get one of those in college football every year.
Has the finances of LSU crashed because approximately 300 athletes are getting some form of scholarship? Of course not. There are thousands of parents (and students) that will gladly play their tuition for the opportunity to get an LSU degree, regardless of who else might be getting a free ride.
To think that the financial basis for ND would crash due to 5 or 6 kids getting a scholarship is not even worth considering. I have a strong suspicion that there would be no shortage of alumni that would make "donations" to cover it. There is a reason that it is specifically forbidden in the rules.
Based on your admission that ND gives out scholarships of approximately 25%, please comment of the following statement:
Look at it from a business point of view. If you offer the service for a 25% reduction to one, how do you justify charging full price to others. People would find out then ask for the same thing. Then you close your doors since no one is paying full price.
I'm pretty sure that you are going to tell me that there is a difference in a full scholarship, and a 25% scholarship. And there is to a single individual. But there isn't a huge difference in the field of finance. And I don't believe that ND is working under a business model that allows for a 25% profit margin.
Look. Redemptorist didn't fail because they gave away too many scholarships. They failed because their paying base (North Baton Rouge) got access to 2 newly created school districts (Zachary and Central) that rocketed to the top of the list in Louisiana. Had it not been for those new school districts, Redemptorist would still be pumping out championships.
The kid in crowley can choose Iota and attend with no tuition charged. The kid in crowley can choose nd and will pay tuition. So what advantage does ND have over Iota in this situation. And please don't give me the standard line of we can turn a kid away it's just stupid. Pulbic shcools do have to take the kids. Now they can start the process to have the kid expelled if he doesn't comply which is cumbersome. However no rule exist that the kid has to be allowed to play sports. The fact that the kid is allowed illustrates the point that the public school would rather have the student thus invalidating the point the private school is better off without him.
Because the public school has no way to control the situation. A kid can come or go to Iota/Crowley as he chooses. He only has to follow the rules of his district. Select schools, however, have several things that can provide leverage. They generally have a better academic system. Their overall campus behavior is generally better. Their one, single, huge, disadvantage, which is tuition, can be overcome with the use of scholarships. And it is totally at the discretion of the Select school.
...thus invalidating the point the private school is better off without him.
Don't be silly. You know that we aren't talking about the kids that the Select school would be better off without. We are talking about the kid that the Select school would be better off WITH. The public schools are the only ones that have to deal with the kids that they would be better off without. ND isn't trying to get those kids. Not. Your. Problem.
The reason i mention those kids being together at 4 or 5 years old because that is the reality. (Not disputing that.) You could play golf and hit a hole in one, you probably won't though. (I have no idea what this analogy is trying to say.) This is the case with the catholic school picking up the out of zone public school kid. They don't come. (Are you actually saying that catholic schools don't pick up any out of zone public school kids? Really? Never, ever?) You need to do more research if you really think the central kid can't go to zachary. Please specify if you are talking within the legal bounds of LHSAA rules or not. Do people cheat? Absolutely. Would I like for them to be caught. Oh, yes.
|
|
|
Kbanes
Jun 17, 2019 11:54:23 GMT -6
Post by indy on Jun 17, 2019 11:54:23 GMT -6
it does seem we are starting to hit an impasse
this scholarship money you think exist just doesn't
the 25% reduction can be justified when it's based off of tax return filing i can't believe you actually compared college athletic scholarships to high school financial aid 100,000 people at lsu 50 a ticket plus suits of course they can cover that
financial aid giving is a side collection you're paying for something you don't use
5 or 6 kids at 7,000 is $35,000 or $42,000 that's a teachers salary so it's more than you actually think
I know you don't want any assumptions incorrectly made on your side so don't make them on the other with the alumni come running to pay for someone else's kid
and you're right the LEA makes the rules so again when a public school can accept the out of zone kid by rule they should be deemed select by the arbitrary rules governing this
and the kid that the public school had to take that is allowed to play football is the one i was referring too not the one that neither type of school want to enroll
|
|
|
Kbanes
Jun 17, 2019 11:57:16 GMT -6
Post by indy on Jun 17, 2019 11:57:16 GMT -6
Eventually some one will realize the lhsaa doesn't determine zones
I CAN'T STRESS THIS ENOUGH
It's the local educational authority that does it
when the LEA allows something the lhsaa has to go with it
|
|