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Post by indy on Jul 2, 2019 9:39:13 GMT -6
Check the math Karr easily has that many
A down year for Karr signs 12-15
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Post by jonevils on Jul 2, 2019 10:01:02 GMT -6
Indy, you are geographical somewhat close to LCA. Could you see where the potential is there for them to simply follow suit? Already showed they don't generally care about the rules with the illegal coaching situation. Look at Riverside, particularly basketball now that football seems to have succumb a bit to financial issues. Yes LCA is right down the road to the east. Pastor Jay got his “how to” list from Pastor Duron, so yes they are copying his MO. But in our parish students are leaving Crowley High by the droves and going to Iota and Midland. Church Point has more out of parish students than ND and LCA combined. Many can draw from 1,100 students and remain 2A. Kinder can get students from Elton and Hathaway in a neighboring parish because they don’t have baseball. And we split because of zones? The principal run LHSAA is a bunch of self serving s. The LHSAA sanctions high school fishing teams now to look out I think the fish bite better in the calcasieu than bayou Nepique
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Post by retired on Jul 2, 2019 10:09:45 GMT -6
Check the math Karr easily has that many A down year for Karr signs 12-15 Again, much like the Kenny Henderson mistake, your comment is simply not true. They have had over 10 kids sign each year the last ten years, but to say that a "down year is 12-15 is simply inaccurate. Also keep in mind that I clearly stated Division I programs. Not Louisiana College, Not Lane College (two of the non D1 schools featured this year with multiple Karr signees) not Texas Wesleyan or Delta State or Langston University (featured in the 2018 with multiple signees ) class Not Miles College (with 4 signees) in 2017 class. However I would be willing to ammend my comment based on the 30 years aspect. I do now say that I bet Karr has had over 100 d1 prospects in 30 years.
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Post by indy on Jul 2, 2019 10:22:16 GMT -6
I feel like Ray on that one I didn’t read carefully enough and was simply thinking of kids who have signed
I’m glad we can peacefully agree that Karr unlikely anyone else has signed over 100 kids to div1
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Post by iamray on Jul 2, 2019 15:51:36 GMT -6
I just want someone from the private side to at least acknowledge that two private schools started this. Public schools didn't just band together for no reason to split public and private schools. They had two reasons - Evangel and John Curtis. Both private programs who have enjoyed far more football success than any other programs (public and private) in the state - except for Haynesville. I've already said my piece on tuition. Both Evangel and JC (as well as most private programs) offer financial aid, scholarships, work study..etc. These programs have ways to help students cover tuition. You think Derrius Guice could afford the tuition at Catholic? You think Willie Allen could've afforded the tuition at JC? Absolutely not. And this is part and parcel to the issue. Do you really feel as if the private schools have absolutely zero culpability in this? 2 private schools did not start this. People were fine with ECA as long as they were dropping games here and there in 1A. When they starting winning is when all the whining started. Prior to that, there wasn't much said about Curtis sitting in 4A. I mean, a lot of 4A schools didnt like it, but they rolled with it. Having 4 and 5A dominated by private schools was just too much. In regards to tuition. What difference does it really make who pays the bill or if it's even paid at all? Public schools aren't self funded, every kid there is there on someone else's dime. You don't seem to take issue with that. And while it's maybe not exactly the same thing, the bottom line is that sometimes a private school kids parents aren't paying the tuition. At a public school, the whole parish is paying for the kid to be there. Kids or not, everybody is paying for it. When we lived in Caddo, we paid for our son to attend ECA and we paid taxes and paid for everybody else's kids as well. Regardless of how crappy the schools were (are). If the money thing is such an issue, that could have been worked around. But that's not what the LHSAA wanted to do. You're wanting to point a lot of accusing fingers at ECA and Curtis, but you have to keep in mind that they were following all the rules that the LHSAA put in place. They weren't violating anything. And those rules could have changed, except that's not what the NormanBookers of the world wanted. They wanted to lash out at private schools, across the board. They weren't interested in fixing anything, they were interested in dealing as much of a blow to private schools as they possibly could because they simply hate private schools. Hating on private schools isn't uncommon and it's not something that's special to Louisiana. Here in Texas, the haters always talk about how private schools are 2nd class and cheat by recruiting. But if you point out that a school like Allen may recruit, their answers is "well they may have recruit a couple of players, but private schools recruit most of their players". and I'm like "you either recruit or you don't". And really, it's much of the same in Louisiana. "private schools recruit and a few public schools here and there also recruit. But still, private schools recruit. and they cheat. and they stink and their breathing up all our public school air". I mean, it's just bloody nonsense. People were okay with catholic schools because of the politics of Louisiana and Catholicism. People were not okay with 2 non-catholic schools ruling the top 2 classes. When those 2 were forced to play down, the smaller schools were not okay with the beat downs they didn't really ask for. Fixing the problem should have been the priority of everyone. Instead, ignoring the problem and creating more problems was what we got. A simple solution would be for the LHSAA to toss out every single private school and declare that they are a public school organization. then the catholic schools can form their own league and declare that they are for catholic schools only. then ECA and Curtis will end their football programs within a few years and the catholic league could dissolve, the lhsaa could open up to everyone again, and everybody would be happy because ECA and Curtis would be out. gone. goodbye. Except for the problem of the same handful of schools, minus ECA and Curtis, would still be winning and there wouldn't be anybody to blame without somehow managing to chew on their own leg. Just a couple of things: 1. You'll never convince me that this wasn't all started by the dominance of Evangel and JC. The unmatched, consistent success they accomplished led to the animosity which drove member schools to vote in favor of a split. You say "when they started winning" is when all the whining happened. Well then, the whining must've started in the late 70's with JC and later on in the 90's when Evangel arose. They have been winning from the beginning at the highest levels of competition in this state all while having a the enrollment of a small 2A school. 2. They didn't violate any rules? Fine. They damn sure took advantage of the sit-out rule for transfers, though. This is indisputable. Public schools couldn't use this rule because transfers had to actually move into the zone of the school they were attending. 3. I never bring up tuition. This is always something a private school person trots out. Can we all just say it: If you're good enough at football, then tuition isn't an issue. I doubt Catholic High would've turned Derrius Guice away, ya know? Yes, public schools are tax-payer funded. So what? Plenty of tax-payer money finds its way into private programs via vouchers. Besides, public schools can't turn kids away. Privates can. This leaves the door open for privates to turn away just enough students to keep their enrollment favorable for classification purposes. I don't know if it is happening, but based off of what they can legally do, it is certainly an option. In conclusion, I believe it all comes down to optics. How can you rationalize a school of 300 students winning state titles over schools with 2,000+ on consistent basis? How can these smaller schools compete - and most of the time dominate - schools with much larger enrollments? Normal responses: "Consistency, coaching staff, culture, winning attitude." It looks bad. It looks like they were able to do something those larger schools couldn't. I hate the split. I blame those two private programs, but I do understand how other privates and smaller publics simply became collateral damage in the process. I had no problem with those two playing up. I wish it would go back to that. What we have now is atrocious.
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Post by iamray on Jul 2, 2019 15:53:53 GMT -6
Haynesville, Neville, and Karr have similar histories to LCA, E, and JC. There are folks on here from CP and Crowley and they never questioned it. It’s just a known thing around here. What I’m getting at is that we have no zones or boundaries any more. The self serving principals are responsible for all this, just a fact. Haynesville does not have 100 Div 1 scholarship players in the last 30 years. Neville and Karr probably don't either, BUT also keep in mind they are not a school with an enrollment of 250-300 students. I do understand your point though. Public school enrollment procedures vary, and are no longer universally the "neighborhood school" attendance zone model that many people think. And therefore, the new dynamics need to be the basis on which the situation is examined. "and are no longer universally the "neighborhood school" attendance zone model that many people think." This is exactly what we have here with OPSB and MCS. That is why hearing about all over these other zoning perimeters in other areas of the state is confusing to me.
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Post by indy on Jul 2, 2019 16:27:11 GMT -6
Ray there is no question than Evangel and Curtis being pushed down has caused the split
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Post by indy on Jul 2, 2019 16:28:51 GMT -6
Are you saying Ouachita Parish is following attendance zones?
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Post by indy on Jul 2, 2019 16:40:49 GMT -6
Ray have to ask this and please get where this is coming from you mention Guice going to catholic of br saying that if a kid is good enough that the private school will find a way to get it covered for the family
Well if that’s the case can’t we use the same logic that of the kid is good that the public school will find a way to get him enrolled? ie fake address or some other exception
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Post by iamray on Jul 3, 2019 11:59:14 GMT -6
Are you saying Ouachita Parish is following attendance zones? No. I wouldn't say schools in OPSB or MCS are abiding by the rules and following attendance zone rules. I'm just pointing out that the zones in OPSB and MCS are "neighborhood" style zones. They aren't parish-wide. There is no Magnet. As written by the zone, you have to pull your kids from your neighborhood - not an adjacent parish like you've described in you area. That is what is crazy to me.
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Post by iamray on Jul 3, 2019 12:03:34 GMT -6
Ray have to ask this and please get where this is coming from you mention Guice going to catholic of br saying that if a kid is good enough that the private school will find a way to get it covered for the family Well if that’s the case can’t we use the same logic that of the kid is good that the public school will find a way to get him enrolled? ie fake address or some other exception Sure, you could do that. But back in the early 2000s, it was much easier for a student to transfer to a private school than public. All the kid would have to do is sit out one year and poof, eligible. The kid wouldn't have to move - or fake moving - like he would to go to a public school.
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Post by indy on Jul 3, 2019 13:16:11 GMT -6
Ray you need to talk to more coaches in the Monroe area
There is a lot of zone hoping hell two years ago a receiver began the year played three games for ouachita and fished the year playing for carroll
also, look at how much movement is related to Sterlington
and you're last post i'm honestly not sure were to go on that We don't have to argue Curtis and Evangel did bad things, took advantage of the metro situations and got kids but you keep harping on the sit a year thing there is no chance that at that point in time the transfers were more than 50% to private considering that currently it's 89% to public
let's just both agree that things exist on both sides and within both of those sides in such a way as nearly everyone has some advantage Karr has more of an advantage over everyone else than any other school Acadiana in lafayette has a huge advantage next would be the only school in the parish crew especially the 1a & 2a schools in that category metro private schools have an advantage but let's look at shreveport were transfers end up more at Captain Shreve than any other school
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Post by iamray on Jul 3, 2019 19:32:11 GMT -6
Ray you need to talk to more coaches in the Monroe area There is a lot of zone hoping hell two years ago a receiver began the year played three games for ouachita and fished the year playing for carroll also, look at how much movement is related to Sterlington and you're last post i'm honestly not sure were to go on that We don't have to argue Curtis and Evangel did bad things, took advantage of the metro situations and got kids but you keep harping on the sit a year thing there is no chance that at that point in time the transfers were more than 50% to private considering that currently it's 89% to public let's just both agree that things exist on both sides and within both of those sides in such a way as nearly everyone has some advantage Karr has more of an advantage over everyone else than any other school Acadiana in lafayette has a huge advantage next would be the only school in the parish crew especially the 1a & 2a schools in that category metro private schools have an advantage but let's look at shreveport were transfers end up more at Captain Shreve than any other school I speak with, and know, many coaches in Monroe. I work here. Where are you getting the 89% stat from? That is interesting. I really don't know what else to say on the subject. I'm a public school guy - graduated from Neville and work at a public school now - and I hate the split. I personally wish it would go back to when JC and E played up. We obviously hold differing viewpoints on the causes of certain things but we can band together and say that what we have now is freaking stupid. Hopefully our paths cross one day and we can have a cold beer and talk football. I'm sure we agree on far more than we disagree.
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Post by indy on Jul 3, 2019 19:44:31 GMT -6
Ray you need to talk to more coaches in the Monroe area There is a lot of zone hoping hell two years ago a receiver began the year played three games for ouachita and fished the year playing for carroll also, look at how much movement is related to Sterlington and you're last post i'm honestly not sure were to go on that We don't have to argue Curtis and Evangel did bad things, took advantage of the metro situations and got kids but you keep harping on the sit a year thing there is no chance that at that point in time the transfers were more than 50% to private considering that currently it's 89% to public let's just both agree that things exist on both sides and within both of those sides in such a way as nearly everyone has some advantage Karr has more of an advantage over everyone else than any other school Acadiana in lafayette has a huge advantage next would be the only school in the parish crew especially the 1a & 2a schools in that category metro private schools have an advantage but let's look at shreveport were transfers end up more at Captain Shreve than any other school I speak with, and know, many coaches in Monroe. I work here. Where are you getting the 89% stat from? That is interesting. I really don't know what else to say on the subject. I'm a public school guy - graduated from Neville and work at a public school now - and I hate the split. I personally wish it would go back to when JC and E played up. We obviously hold differing viewpoints on the causes of certain things but we can band together and say that what we have now is freaking stupid. Hopefully our paths cross one day and we can have a cold beer and talk football. I'm sure we agree on far more than we disagree. A cold beer and visiting sounds good. Looking forward to it. I have a daughter at LSU that may go to pharmacy school in Monroe. My oldest daughter went there and I went once a month for 4 years. I hope to do it again.
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Post by indy on Jul 3, 2019 20:52:22 GMT -6
Just realized I forgot to mention the 89%
So to answer this we have to go back a bit
When the expanded split was passed the lhsaa, well specifically Eddie Bonine, called a special meeting to have a revote. He knew this wasn’t a step in the right direction. He had his office compile a fact sheet and trusted the executive committee at the time to distribute it to the member schools. That’s where it went wrong. You had two principals on the EC that failed to send it to any private schools because they wanted them left in the dark and didn’t want them to show up and vote. One of them starting trying to rally support to fire the man. If you doubt this the freedom of information act email request done by a Baton Rouge media member proved this. Those two conspired to put out the word that Bonine was trying to undermine the principals so naturally the special meeting was a disaster. One of the facts was showing that 85% of all transfers in the two years before that point ended up at public schools. This fact sheet is something the office has continued to do and I was told at the last meeting they disclosed the number in the two previous years now to be 89%.
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Post by retired on Jul 4, 2019 6:17:56 GMT -6
Just realized I forgot to mention the 89% So to answer this we have to go back a bit When the expanded split was passed the lhsaa, well specifically Eddie Bonine, called a special meeting to have a revote. He knew this wasn’t a step in the right direction. He had his office compile a fact sheet and trusted the executive committee at the time to distribute it to the member schools. That’s where it went wrong. You had two principals on the EC that failed to send it to any private schools because they wanted them left in the dark and didn’t want them to show up and vote. One of them starting trying to rally support to fire the man. If you doubt this the freedom of information act email request done by a Baton Rouge media member proved this. Those two conspired to put out the word that Bonine was trying to undermine the principals so naturally the special meeting was a disaster. One of the facts was showing that 85% of all transfers in the two years before that point ended up at public schools. This fact sheet is something the office has continued to do and I was told at the last meeting they disclosed the number in the two previous years now to be 89%. Are those numbers information that was received from the freedom of information act request? Or are they just typical bs hearsay that surrounds this discussion (both on this site, and in other venues) , and the only thing the request revealed was information about a meeting.
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Post by indy on Jul 4, 2019 7:54:08 GMT -6
Transfer numbers were lhsaa disclosure
The FOI request I’m referring to was for one of those two principals emails
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Post by retired on Jul 4, 2019 8:16:45 GMT -6
Transfer numbers were lhsaa disclosure The FOI request I’m referring to was for one of those two principals emails Yes, so my point is this "lhsaa disclosure"... doesn't seem to be very disclosed. Not only that, but it appears to fall under the category of "statistics can say anything you want them to say". For example, St Tammany Parish is one of if not the fastest growing parish in Louisiana. It stands to reason that the vast majority of those moving into it would attend public schools. Each move in would be "a transfer". A much more telling stat would be % of transfers who received some type of district honor (all district for example) in public schools vs private schools and then cross reference that to the overall number of public schools vs private schools.
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Post by indy on Jul 4, 2019 8:32:48 GMT -6
The information is given to member schools at the meeting me
I guess it could be put on the website for all
I know Iota got two big time transfers last year and so did Westgate
The NISH receiver who went to Westgate was a much better player than the Cro receiver who went to stm
I’m still not sure how to really skew the transfer numbers Even saying the majority of schools are public Private is still the minority and the lhsaa is only counting kids who play sports
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Post by fanman on Jul 4, 2019 9:38:49 GMT -6
Imo we need to keep it split. Never go back to that tragedy
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Post by indy on Jul 4, 2019 10:08:25 GMT -6
Ok so how do you justify the inequities that still exist?
Or explain how removing competition from kids is best for their development?
Or the unfair prejudice placed on 95% of the private schools?
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Post by fanman on Jul 4, 2019 10:12:27 GMT -6
It’s been explained till it’s been stomped into a mud hole. It’s best for just as many reasons as you are against it. Play ball
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Post by chalmetteowl on Jul 4, 2019 10:31:55 GMT -6
The information is given to member schools at the meeting me I guess it could be put on the website for all I know Iota got two big time transfers last year and so did Westgate The NISH receiver who went to Westgate was a much better player than the Cro receiver who went to stm I’m still not sure how to really skew the transfer numbers Even saying the majority of schools are public Private is still the minority and the lhsaa is only counting kids who play sports we're only looking at a subset of that
namely kids talented enough to swing district and state championships going to teams capable of winning them
if the kid isn't talented... does it really matter where he goes?
if the team isn't capable... does it really matter who they get?
talent wants to play with talent. i saw it firsthand when we had Mitchell Robinson. he wasn't the only transfer we got
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Post by indy on Jul 4, 2019 10:36:36 GMT -6
Fanman if it’s so many name two or three?
You’re right I’m against it
We’re still in America where we have free speech to promote the exchange of ideas so let’s do that?
This is my question why is it good that the same teams make the final 4 in both sides every year?
Why is ok for Iota to have baseball players from crowley when other public schools have only in zone kids?
Karr and the other metro’s have a lock on 4a so how it is fair to all those other schools?
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Post by indy on Jul 4, 2019 10:37:40 GMT -6
If we are gonna say it doesn’t matter where the transfers end up or only care if they are good, can we apply that to both public and private schools?
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Post by indy on Jul 4, 2019 10:41:15 GMT -6
If it’s really what’s best for football why when you had 9 games for 6 years that none of the attendances were in the top ten from when we had 5 games?
Also, Fanman do you understand the basic principles behind a free market economy?
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Post by retired on Jul 4, 2019 11:29:54 GMT -6
If it’s really what’s best for football why when you had 9 games for 6 years that none of the attendances were in the top ten from when we had 5 games? Also, Fanman do you understand the basic principles behind a free market economy? I understand what you are trying to convey, but don't mistake attendance/revenue earning of HS sports as an indicator of "what is best for football" Also concepts such as free market economics don't really apply either.
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Post by indy on Jul 4, 2019 11:39:40 GMT -6
Here is how I think my free market economy point is valid
I’m stating that competition causes people to have to work harder. I’m citing the multiple people from the same districts as evidence of this. With so many inept teams out there it doesn’t drive the point to the athlete in the workouts and the practices to have a sense of urgency
Here is how my point about attendance is valid
I’m using it to show that the general public is aware that it’s creating a watered down product that people aren’t as interested in seeing. Thus denying kids a better experience to be a part of.
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Post by indy on Jul 4, 2019 11:41:22 GMT -6
When you hear coaches saying we can win because we aren’t as bad as the other teams is that really the mindset you want to encourage?
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Post by retired on Jul 4, 2019 12:02:26 GMT -6
Here is how I think my free market economy point is valid I’m stating that competition causes people to have to work harder. I’m citing the multiple people from the same districts as evidence of this. With so many inept teams out there it doesn’t drive the point to the athlete in the workouts and the practices to have a sense of urgency Here is how my point about attendance is valid I’m using it to show that the general public is aware that it’s creating a watered down product that people aren’t as interested in seeing. Thus denying kids a better experience to be a part of. The problem with this line of thinking is that it really doesn't apply. It isn't as if the semi final teams are lazy. The "watered down" product thing isn't really relevant in my opinion when discussing the Superdome Classic because all 18 teams that participate are really good teams. Keep in mind that attendance is down for football in general, both in person and television.
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