|
Post by retired on Jul 9, 2019 10:31:09 GMT -6
Well playing better teams wouldn’t allow teams to hold back plays and defenses for the next round That really doesn't have any bearing here. I do understand what you and brprepfan are saying, I am just pointing out that it is a talking point without much weight behind it. For that matter, if you really wanted the "best possible tournament" then forget the classes. KARR Warren Easton could all have competed in the top class. Heck, Karr could have won it, and WE could have to if things broke right for them. Heck, ND and Catholic NI both would have been better first round opponents than almost any of the bottom say 20 seeds in 5A in any NON SPLIT year. So, if we are going for the best tournament.. they should play up to 5A right?
|
|
|
Post by indy on Jul 9, 2019 12:17:04 GMT -6
We have a coach at ND who is a math guy
He’s been shaking his head in disbelief of some of your assessments on numbers and sample sizes
|
|
|
Post by retired on Jul 9, 2019 12:38:39 GMT -6
We have a coach at ND who is a math guy He’s been shaking his head in disbelief of some of your assessments on numbers and sample sizes ——————— So not Indy now Do you want to try to understand the holes in your reasoning on bracket integrity? And also I coach Here is an example of how it matters We held back plays for catholic who runs 3-3 This allowed the element of surprise in the game It’s easy to adjust at practice but difficult in the games You do realize that are saying that you held back plays because CNI runs a stack. So for your supposition to be true, then the hypothetical opponent would have to had also run a stack, and put you in a position where you thought those plays would have benefited you. Not only that but you are also suggesting that CNI 's base reads and keys that got them to the finals would not have fit these "super special annexation of Puerto Rico" style plays? Sure, having a new wrinkle is always nice. But you could just as easily added a new wrinkle after beating Coach Stewart and the Greenies right? Come on... weak sauce. Lastly, you beat CNI by 21 points. Those "super secret plays" weren't the difference makers. But, as I said, if you think the brackets need to be much tougher, by all means tell Lew you think you should play up, so your first round could be against say Jesuit or Rummel. None of that means that I think the current situation is what one would call ideal, or even good for that matter. I am simply saying that many of Indy's comments and suppositions don't support his claims or arguments.
|
|
|
Post by indy on Jul 9, 2019 13:10:08 GMT -6
Hey "Retired" this is Lew again if you wanna mention your name that's fine if not that's fine too.
So here we go in addressing your statements. First Catholic (NI) does run a stack. However I never said what year, I was actually referring to the case when we were in district and played another team who ran the stack. So we are talking about 2015 and 2016. I guess you wanna know the name of the team so i'll tell you it was the Delcambre Panthers. I can assure you that they also ran a stack defense. So I never was a hypothetical situation however in terms of hypothetical situations a spread offense doesn't care what the defense does so they can hold back a route combination or read play one team to the next.
Second: If you know my name you probably know my degree is in Math so I won't debate you in what you degree is in but you can try to debate me in math and statistics. You're argument of bracket strength without the "select" doesn't have merit. In a 32 field if 4 wouldn't be in the playoffs that's 13% of participants in the field but it's generally gonna be more than 4 pushing the number up. As far as final four go, seeds are supposed to hold but don't always and that's what competition and sports are about. In 2012 it was a fight every round and we ran out of gas in the final game. Parkview had it much easier and had more fight left when we got to them, so again I have a specific example to counter another point.
Third: I feel like you know Indy too and you have something against him that you probably need to settle with him.
|
|
|
Post by retired on Jul 9, 2019 13:45:38 GMT -6
Hey "Retired" this is Lew again if you wanna mention your name that's fine if not that's fine too. So here we go in addressing your statements. First Catholic (NI) does run a stack. However I never said what year, I was actually referring to the case when we were in district and played another team who ran the stack. So we are talking about 2015 and 2016. I guess you wanna know the name of the team so i'll tell you it was the Delcambre Panthers. I can assure you that they also ran a stack defense. So I never was a hypothetical situation however in terms of hypothetical situations a spread offense doesn't care what the defense does so they can hold back a route combination or read play one team to the next. Second: If you know my name you probably know my degree is in Math so I won't debate you in what you degree is in but you can try to debate me in math and statistics. You're argument of bracket strength without the "select" doesn't have merit. In a 32 field if 4 wouldn't be in the playoffs that's 13% of participants in the field but it's generally gonna be more than 4 pushing the number up. As far as final four go, seeds are supposed to hold but don't always and that's what competition and sports are about. In 2012 it was a fight every round and we ran out of gas in the final game. Parkview had it much easier and had more fight left when we got to them, so again I have a specific example to counter another point. Third: I feel like you know Indy too and you have something against him that you probably need to settle with him. Last things first coach, as I told Indy before, I don't have anything against anyone. I do have issue with people not discussing the truth, using convoluted logic and the like. I think it is admirable that Indy is passionate about the state of the LHSAA and how it handles its championships. I think it may be a bit curious that he seems to know the locations of so many young people regarding their transfers, (this thread started with his comments about where 3 HS girls softplayers live and he has numerous other posts talking about transfers in other parishes) BUT I also think he is spot on demonstrating that some schools like Many, Karr, Kinder etc are not all that different than ECA, Notre Dame, Curtis etc when it comes to enrollment. I think that is a big issue when discussing the split. However, Indy seems to always discount the fact that Many, Karr, ND, ECA, Curtis do have it VERY differently than say a St. James, or a Kentwood, or a Slidell High or a Leesville (POINT OF FACT, I am just listing some public schools here to represent any public school with traditional neighborhood attendance zones, and I can not say with certainty the enrollment policies of these specific schools.) I have said to him, he is right, and that there is not a reason why Karr, Kinder, Many should not be included with the brackets of ND, JC, ECA, Uhigh etc. Working our way up, obviously a non split bracket would be stronger. I am not disputing that. You know what would be even stronger? A non split 4 class bracket. Stronger than that? A non spit 2 class bracket. My point when asking brprepfan "why" when he said he wished there was a .500 record requirement was simply to point out that going from the top down, it wouldn't matter that much. Coach, in '12 you beat St. Charles by 20, and Iowa by 35. That said, I don't think "gas in the tank" is the reason Parkview won by 35 points. In your heart, I think you know that isn't the reason either. If your first paragraph means that you didn't run things in say week 7 because you wanted to save them for CNI, doesn't that make any arguments about the playoffs moot? I have also said that I think Indy might be a bit blinded because based on his posts about ND, it may be the most unique private school and only private school that is performing (in football) on that high a level with student athletes that, if high school football was banned, would still be attending ND. I could be wrong, but if HS football was nonexistant, I think that many of the key players at schools such as ECA, JC, PVB , the now defunct Redemptorist of BR etc would not have attended. I don't think his experience with regards to athletics in a private school is representative of the norm. Lastly, just to give you some context, I don't think the split is a great solution, HOWEVER I do think it is a much more complex situation than Indy believes. If you peruse though his posts, you will see a litany of "" comments, insults, and insinuation that the split was essentially "the easy way out" and that instead it should just "work harder". I just don't agree with his simplistic view, nor do I agree with those who think "the split" solves what they perceived to be inequality and level playing field. Bottom line, I think the discussion is much more complex than most of the arguments/statements I read here, and I try to get people to see that.
|
|
|
Post by indy on Jul 9, 2019 15:17:23 GMT -6
Don’t have time to get to everything right now.
First we can agree on Indy and his name calling.
Second we played Delcambre 9 and Catholic Ni 10 so it’s exactly like the playoff bracket argument
Third very funny to mention KENTWOOD MAGNET as your neighborhood pubic school argument as well as Leesville with their Air Force base
Fourth yes you can find the final score of the games but you dot see how late the game was when it turned and what it took to get it to that point
Fifth I’m not sure what basis you have to argue that all the private’s that win somehow get transfers and what not I can attest to nd being unique in terms of kids playing and number of students
|
|
|
Post by indy on Jul 9, 2019 15:18:05 GMT -6
Don’t have time to get to everything right now.
First we can agree on Indy and his name calling.
Second we played Delcambre 9 and Catholic Ni 10 so it’s exactly like the playoff bracket argument
Third very funny to mention KENTWOOD MAGNET as your neighborhood pubic school argument as well as Leesville with their Air Force base
Fourth yes you can find the final score of the games but you dot see how late the game was when it turned and what it took to get it to that point
Fifth I’m not sure what basis you have to argue that all the private’s that win somehow get transfers and what not I can attest to nd being unique in terms of kids playing and number of students
|
|
|
Post by indy on Jul 9, 2019 15:19:58 GMT -6
The split was a horrible decision
You had two that win and kicked out people for that
Even amongst public schools a level playing field doesn’t exist
Issue is very complex because of so many exceptions that exist on public school side that not all have
|
|
|
Post by retired on Jul 9, 2019 17:35:35 GMT -6
The split was a horrible decision You had two that win and kicked out people for that Even amongst public schools a level playing field doesn’t exist Issue is very complex because of so many exceptions that exist on public school side that not all have I absolutely agree on all parts.
|
|
|
Post by retired on Jul 9, 2019 17:55:00 GMT -6
Don’t have time to get to everything right now. First we can agree on Indy and his name calling. Second we played Delcambre 9 and Catholic Ni 10 so it’s exactly like the playoff bracket argument Third very funny to mention KENTWOOD MAGNET as your neighborhood pubic school argument as well as Leesville with their Air Force base Fourth yes you can find the final score of the games but you dot see how late the game was when it turned and what it took to get it to that point Fifth I’m not sure what basis you have to argue that all the private’s that win somehow get transfers and what not I can attest to nd being unique in terms of kids playing and number of students Starting with the 2nd point coach : it is not "exactly like the playoff bracket argument" because Indy's supposition is that "playing better teams wouldn't allow you to hold back plays and defenses for the next round" My argument is that such actions are going to have a negligible at BEST impact on the tournament as a whole. The idea that the big effect of an (admittedly) watered down early playoff round is that a team gets to stay in base against a less talented team is kind of comical. 3rd point. As I stated, I am not informed as to the enrollment situations for all schools like Indy seems to be. How about I replace Kentwood and Leesville with .. Ouchita and Chalmette? 4th point- 2012 was a NON split year. Are you suggesting that you ran out of gas, but PVB had an easy road? Couldn't that happen in any year, split or no split? Also, in 2012, would either of the 3A teams been able to compete in the 2A game?? Lastly, just an interesting tidbit about 2012, 60% of the teams playing Friday/Saturday in the dome were private schools with 80% of the champions being private. As a math teacher, can you tell me how that compares with the general population of schools in Louisiana? The point still stands, that while the classification process definitely seems to be a bit wonky, and some "non select" schools probably such as Karr, Warren Easton Kinder, Many etc could (and maybe SHOULD) be in brackets with Notre Dame, Catholic, Curtis, ECA, Uhigh, Parkview etc, ALL of those schools have a leg up on other non select schools right?
|
|
|
Post by indy on Jul 9, 2019 19:21:05 GMT -6
Winning is hard it takes a lot things to make it happen
Do you really feel we should have two divisions One for those who win? One for those who don’t?
|
|
|
Post by retired on Jul 10, 2019 10:56:21 GMT -6
Winning is hard it takes a lot things to make it happen Do you really feel we should have two divisions One for those who win? One for those who don’t? Kind of reductive don't you think? And stated from a position of privilege? Again, I wonder if your perspective would be different if ND played 2 certain similar small private schools every year, and ND's trips to the dome instead ended in quaterfinal losses. It might be a bit revealing that when you are presented with the fact that some schools have different enrollment practices, you immediately equate that to teams that win or teams that don't win. I definitely could see a logical argument being made to reexamine the classification procedures, maintain the split and add the current erroneously classified teams to the select grouping. Or just keep being reductive, overly simplistic, and misrepresenting information.
|
|
|
Post by indy on Jul 11, 2019 4:04:20 GMT -6
That’s really a difficult way of saying yes.
And if you’re looking for misrepresenting something look at your post on 2012 Finals representation and championships.
Emotion is the enemy of logic and reason. If we are to get anywhere in this discussion you’re gonna have to take a step back take a breathe and explain your story and your experience.
|
|
|
Post by indy on Jul 11, 2019 4:07:55 GMT -6
By what it takes to win I mean
1. Community that likes football 2. Kids wanna play football 3. Coaching staff that has experience and knowledge 4. Administration that will back the coaches and allow them to hire necessary coaches and set them up with athletic pe and allow the coaches to be in the pe
This exist on both “select” and “non select” sides it also fails to exist on both sides
|
|
|
Post by retired on Jul 11, 2019 6:16:01 GMT -6
That’s really a difficult way of saying yes. And if you’re looking for misrepresenting something look at your post on 2012 Finals representation and championships. Emotion is the enemy of logic and reason. If we are to get anywhere in this discussion you’re gonna have to take a step back take a breathe and explain your story and your experience. 1) Not true 2) So, posting facts is misrepresenting? 3) Yes, me..the guy who constantly refers to people as s, and programs as ing... I am the one with emotion? I am probably the least emotionally attached or biased on the board. I just feel it is important to point out when people who are fully emotionally attached and biased (ehem) aren't posting facts or misrepresenting items.
|
|
|
Post by indy on Jul 11, 2019 8:45:40 GMT -6
What facts you post are you referring too?
You post something relating to 2012 when five games were played and want a generalization from that yet three or four games doesn’t count for you in other instances
I get it you hate Evangel and Curtis. Hell maybe your jealous of the schools that win too. You sure seem to have a strong opinion and knowledge base. What school did you go to? What school do you currently follow?
|
|
|
Post by retired on Jul 11, 2019 10:23:39 GMT -6
What facts you post are you referring too? You post something relating to 2012 when five games were played and want a generalization from that yet three or four games doesn’t count for you in other instances I get it you hate Evangel and Curtis. Hell maybe your jealous of the schools that win too. You sure seem to have a strong opinion and knowledge base. What school did you go to? What school do you currently follow? Again, you put emotion where there is none. I don't hate ECA or Curtis or ANY high school. I am however, knowledgeable enough to see their records, their team compositions compared to student enrollment over decades. Res Ipsa Loquitor. 2012-- Coach brought that up as an example of a year when the "non watered down" bracket resulted in ND "running out of gas" which resulted in their Finals loss. I just also looked at the year he brought up, and pointed out that 60% of the teams in the dome, and 80% of the winners were private. Then I asked how that 80% compared to the % of schools in the LHSAA that were private. How is that misrepresenting anything? I don't "have a team" which is probably why I feel my posts are the least biased when it comes to the split.
|
|
|
Post by indy on Jul 11, 2019 11:12:23 GMT -6
So you're correct about Curtis and Evangel as far as enrollment and wins over time. Understand as you say I over simplify the split you are over simplifying those two. For them to grow into what they did they need to be in a metro area to have the requisite athletes then have a coaching staff that could help develop these players and lastly have the administration line up a situation athletics could thrive.
How can you think that pointing out one year, 2012, and saying 4/5 privates won proves any point? If you wanna make some argument on privates success relative to their percent composition in the lhsaa you're gonna need more than one year. It was also hard to decipher your 60% and 80%, especially when it was 60% private winners and 60% private participants. Also, the point he was making that having tougher games starting in the first round add to the wear and tear on the kids. I'm not sure how you think you have some more valid point on this since A you don't know his team or B you don't even coach.
So you don't have some team you follow, ok. I'm glad you feel you aren't biased but what basis to you have for these conclusions you draw on these teams? Yeah I call people s and such mostly because they have the same "advantages" that they say Notre Dame has and run away from all private schools. I don't advocate to wipe out those who succeed.
|
|
|
Post by indy on Jul 11, 2019 11:20:58 GMT -6
Almost forgot about your would i look differently deal i guess you're referring to Curtis and Evangel being sent down which lead to this. You really think the main motivation against the privates is level playing field they've provided it's not. It's spite and jealousy.
What would be interesting is if the schools that are the only football team in the parish such as Many, Union & Oak Grove were voted out by those schools that have to compete for football players. I wonder how Many would feel about that?
|
|
|
Post by retired on Jul 11, 2019 16:59:48 GMT -6
So you're correct about Curtis and Evangel as far as enrollment and wins over time. Understand as you say I over simplify the split you are over simplifying those two. For them to grow into what they did they need to be in a metro area to have the requisite athletes then have a coaching staff that could help develop these players and lastly have the administration line up a situation athletics could thrive. I don't know how I have oversimplified anything. I just pointed out that those two schools have a very similar enrollment to Notre Dame. If they were in the same league, then maybe some of Zaunbrechers, Hensgens and Casanova 's etc. playoff runs might have been cut shorter? That would have stunk for those guys. Those two schools also have similar enrollments to Catholic NI, Baton Rouge Episcopal, Country Day, Newman, Park View Baptist. Furthermore, the enrollment numbers are similar to Kinder, Many, Ferriday, Vidalia, None of the schools I listed had rosters with players like those two schools year after year after year. My point was that your perspective, the cavalier "what, do you want brackets for winners and losers?" may have been formed differently under different circumstances. As I mentioned, the perspective is steeped in "privilege" so to speak. First, let me point out yet ANOTHER inaccuracy on your part There were 5 championship games in 2012 correct? You just said that above. 4/5 80% of the games were won by private not 60% private winners as you state above. There were 10 contestants in those dome games. 6 out of the ten were private schools. 60% participation. And of course a one year sample doesn't "prove" anything to use you vocab. I just wanted to point out the irony that the year he selected happened to be a very disproportionate year. The bottom line is that there is a continuum of schools when it comes to football. There are schools where football is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT. One could even joke that some of those places have "schools the football team could be proud of" You have some schools where it was completely acceptable to create an entire extra grade to ensure the athletes had the best chance of being bigger/stronger/faster than their opponents. You have some schools where football is important, but so are other aspects of HS, and the kids playing probably won't feel their greatest accomplishments happened on a field when they were 17. You have some schools that work hard, but whose enrollments are limited by the LEA. There are schools that have basically an open enrollment. Some require tuition, some do not. Do I think the current select/non select classifications make sense? Not based on what I hear about schools such as Kinder, Many, Karr, Warren Easton, etc. But do I think things were perfect pre split? No.
|
|
|
Post by indy on Jul 11, 2019 17:36:48 GMT -6
Maybe he picked 2012 because that was the most difficult draw that Notre Dame ever had in the playoffs. Since he wasn’t trying to make a public private point he didn’t check on what happened in the other games.
No one said or thought things were just fine before the split. I certainly don’t want it to go back to the bad ole days.
You’re right that for a lot of schools the LEA gives them a huge assist. Some schools the principals work to make it next to impossible for them to win games.
Again I ask how is some sort of multiplier compromise not better than a Split?
|
|
|
Post by retired on Jul 11, 2019 18:14:12 GMT -6
Maybe he picked 2012 because that was the most difficult draw that Notre Dame ever had in the playoffs. Since he wasn’t trying to make a public private point he didn’t check on what happened in the other games. No one said or thought things were just fine before the split. I certainly don’t want it to go back to the bad ole days. You’re right that for a lot of schools the LEA gives them a huge assist. Some schools the principals work to make it next to impossible for them to win games. Again I ask how is some sort of multiplier compromise not better than a Split? I think a multiplier is probably the best way to go, especially since the opening of Calvary Baptist. I think the concern with multipliers are : 1) 20 years ago ECA and JC actually used playing up to their advantage. At the time playing up allowed them to leverage the somewhat unique advantages you mentioned (open enrollment combined with large metro population with the added bonus of less than impressive school systems with lackluster football programs). Playing up HELPED them ehem.. acquire talent. That said, I don't think the leverage would be as strong this time around. 2) St. Martins Episcopal. Pope John Paul. Archibishop Shaw (which is just a shame) etc. Schools like that in no way, shape or form should be considered to "have an advantage" and use a multiplier even though they are private schools But, given a choice between 1999, 2012, 2019 or a multiplier...I would indeed choose multiplier.
|
|
|
Post by indy on Jul 11, 2019 18:27:17 GMT -6
Some public schools would also get a multiplier.
Now with Curtis and Evangel they’re going up but all the way up because I agree with you it shouldn’t be a way for the school to gain another advantage.
It would also be nice to see where if a kid transfers he sits baring some kind of 100 mile move.
|
|
|
Post by retired on Jul 11, 2019 18:35:15 GMT -6
Some public schools would also get a multiplier. Now with Curtis and Evangel they’re going up but all the way up because I agree with you it shouldn’t be a way for the school to gain another advantage. It would also be nice to see where if a kid transfers he sits baring some kind of 100 mile move. Even then though, things pop up. 100 miles? What if a kid lived in Mid City New Orleans (close to Warren Easton) and was a good player, but then the family moved just say 11 miles away to the Westbank. That kid shouldn't be able to play for Karr? Or Baker to Zachary? Or a Move from say Metairie to Mandeville? 30ish miles? Just not simple.
|
|
|
Post by indy on Jul 11, 2019 19:19:42 GMT -6
Agreed it’s complicated
How do you prevent a move that was for athletic purposes?
|
|
|
Post by retired on Jul 11, 2019 19:31:05 GMT -6
Agreed it’s complicated How do you prevent a move that was for athletic purposes? Haven't you been screaming that all of these schools are open enrollment anyway?
|
|
|
Post by indy on Jul 11, 2019 19:36:59 GMT -6
Agreed it’s complicated How do you prevent a move that was for athletic purposes? Haven't you been screaming that all of these schools are open enrollment anyway? Yes, but I also point out that the lhsaa is controlled by self serving principals. We need rules and we need to have rules followed.
|
|
|
Post by indy on Jul 11, 2019 19:39:14 GMT -6
You used the open enrollment parish example not me
Shelvin shouldn’t have been eligible at nd
Bbhs got a pitcher that shouldn’t have been eligible
Iota had two that shouldn’t have been eligible last season
|
|
|
Post by alcoholic66 on Jul 30, 2019 7:52:20 GMT -6
Well playing better teams wouldn’t allow teams to hold back plays and defenses for the next round That really doesn't have any bearing here. I do understand what you and brprepfan are saying, I am just pointing out that it is a talking point without much weight behind it. For that matter, if you really wanted the "best possible tournament" then forget the classes. KARR Warren Easton could all have competed in the top class. Heck, Karr could have won it, and WE could have to if things broke right for them. Heck, ND and Catholic NI both would have been better first round opponents than almost any of the bottom say 20 seeds in 5A in any NON SPLIT year. So, if we are going for the best tournament.. they should play up to 5A right? Karr never would have beat Curtis last year. Just saying.....Okay I’ll shut up now....y’all continue.
|
|
|
Post by retired on Jul 30, 2019 9:39:29 GMT -6
That really doesn't have any bearing here. I do understand what you and brprepfan are saying, I am just pointing out that it is a talking point without much weight behind it. For that matter, if you really wanted the "best possible tournament" then forget the classes. KARR Warren Easton could all have competed in the top class. Heck, Karr could have won it, and WE could have to if things broke right for them. Heck, ND and Catholic NI both would have been better first round opponents than almost any of the bottom say 20 seeds in 5A in any NON SPLIT year. So, if we are going for the best tournament.. they should play up to 5A right? Karr never would have beat Curtis last year. Just saying.....Okay I’ll shut up now....y’all continue. No, that is a valid opinion. My point is that by nature, any type of classification is "watering" down playoff games. I was just pointing out that it is simply a matter of choosing how you divide them?
|
|