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Post by retired on Aug 10, 2019 6:35:06 GMT -6
HOnestly, I believe it is divided LHSAA. He is charged with trying to reunify, and I think he realizes that organizing a select group is a step towards more division, not less. I don't know how it will all play out, but with regards to quality leagues/associations, the schools classified as select need the schools classified as non select a lot more than the non selects need the selects. An organization made of just the non select schools where they can only play each other is not as good as a unified one. An organization of just select schools only playing each other would be pretty lacking. The private schools have no intention to leave the LHSAA. They want it back to a unified playoff system. The LSA is simply to unify their voice and control the split playoffs which was forced upon them. Simply to make the best of of a stupid situation. Bonine should welcome this, but: 1 sponsorship dollars will be split.2 attendance at the dome will be down. 3 private schools will get a 10x compensation 4 all private schools could potentially share in the revenue. 5 it will lead to less revenue for the LHSAA which leads to pay cuts, layoffs, and unhappy members. It’s mostly about the money💰 it’s also about control. Bonine is scared poopless about losing control of his members and the MONEY I disagree. I am not saying that the LSA was formed as an intentional first step to create a separate organization. I do recognize however, that it definitely could end up being the foundation of just that. As far as the intentions of "private schools", sure right now I don't think any school is looking to leave, but after a few years of operations, the LSA may change that. Again not intentionally, but I can easily envision a situation where in a few years Jesuit, Brother Martin, St. Aug, Shaw, De Lasalle, Holy Cross, Rummel, Curtis, St. Pauls, Mt. Carmel, Dominican, Archbishop Chappelle, St. Scholastica, St. Charles Catholic, Riverside, St. Martins, Newman, Country Day, Hannan, St. Thomas Aquinas, Pope John Paul, Northlake Christian and maybe a few others decide to just form their own league.
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Post by Southplaq on Aug 10, 2019 19:24:22 GMT -6
Another person on the outside looking in who has no clue what the hell goes on there, and just rather go with the easy explanation. Instead of going by what you've heard, why don't you come to the lower school and see for yourself what goes on. Quit believing crap you hear and come and see for yourself how this tiny school from River ridge maintains such great success year after year. Come to the lower school and watch the 4th, 5th, and 6th grade teams, in pull uniforms and pads, run the same plays that the high school runs day after day, 5 days a week. Come and watch the incoming 8th grade team and freshman team work their tails off even harder to perfect the same offense and defense they have been learning for 5 years. Curtis isn't filled with superstar athletes like people think, they are just great at what they do. People should come and see this for themselves, but they won't do that because it's easier to sit on their asses and point fingers. Read my response to Retired and then it all might start making sense to you. And to address your Willie Allen statement, You really need to read Willie's full story before you make simple comments about him taking 2 buses and walking 10 blocks to get to school. It wasn't as easy as that, but, once again, someone on the outside looking in, who is just repeating what you heard, instead of getting the full story. And if you think coaches wouldn't do the same for other kids who are in similar situations as Willie (which were more dire than a bus ride and walking) then you are the one who is crazy, because they have. You guys have no clue what goes on there and how this school help out the average student time after time, but I'll let you all wallow in your ignorance because you are happier dwelling there, Just the type of defensive deflection I expected. I've seen it firsthand, bro. That's why I said what I did. Was Willie Allen on one of the 4th or 5th grade teams? Nope. Your statement about the feeder school applies to most successful programs so to hell with that argument. What separates Curtis from everyone else is the players. To hell with your sanctimonious BS about coming to "see all the hard work from the 8th graders." Like I said, most programs work just as hard but haven't come close to the success of JC. Why? Players. A school with 300 students to make a team from should not be able to consistently dominate teams from enrollments of 1,000 - 2,000. Don't tell me they just work harder than every one else. Sell that bs to someone else. You're right. Curtis isn't filled with "superstar" athletes. That's why they go out and get the best they can in that area, i.e. Willie Allen. Willie had a terrible home situation. I get that. But I stated facts related directly to his football story at Curtis. If you don't like it, then your problem is with the truth. Go ahead and enlighten us, man. Tell me how many times football coaches at John Curtis have invited "average" students to live with them so that they can continue to attend school at John Curtis. Please, enlighten me because I'm sick of this sanctimonious BS about how they "work hard." Most teams work hard. Some just work hard with bigger and stronger players. Its not a god damn deflection, its the truth. Its obvious that your mind is already made up about Curtis, so I won't try to get into a debate with you about what the hell I know goes on by being involved in the school for 15 years. And its more than obvious that you won't get off your butt and come and see what I see on the practice fields and in the weight rooms, so I have nothing further to say about this. It's not my job to defend Curtis, is my duty to tell what I see FIRST HAND! So keep living in your ignorance and be happy because honesltly you don't know a goddamn thing about Curtis. You take one story about Allen, that you don't have all the facts on, but you still pounce upon it and run your mouth like its the norm. But like I said, you don't know a god damn thing about what goes on at that school and the numerous non-athletic kids that gets help year after year. I'm there tutoring at the school year after year and I see what's going on. You just love pointing your finger at crap and what you should be pointing it at is how many rules Neville breaks and how they recruit star players illegally.
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Post by Southplaq on Aug 10, 2019 22:19:29 GMT -6
Total Enrolment numbers doesn't matter here and is useless in this argument. You have to use football numbers, specifically. Curtis might have 1,600 less students than Ehret or WM, but the football numbers are quite the same. Curtis has over 200 boys at their school and field a team of about 110 kids, which is more than Ehret and comparable to WM. So, if Curtis gets all the top tier athletes in the area, then common sense should tell you that they should be putting more players on the All-State team than surrounding schools, who have the same number of football players, but gets lower-tier athletes, not less. I have to somewhat disagree that high school football games are won by great high school football players. That isn't the case most of the time. Teamwork, dedication, preparation and superior coaching wins games in more cases than talent does. Case in point, on paper, year after year, St. Augustine is more talented than Curtis, yet they can't beat them. Its easy for people, on the outside looking in, to say that Curtis has great football players, but my advice for those same people is to come to the school and watch practices of the incoming 8th grade and freshman classes and you will see than these aren't the greatest players or athletes in the area. Likewise, come to the lower school and watch the 4th, 5th, and 6th graders dress out in full pads and run the same exact plays as the high school over and over and over for an hour a day, 5 days a week. No, Curtis doesn't have the best players and athletes in the area, they are just great at what they do, and THAT IS WHAT PEOPLE MISS! As the great Michael Jordan said, “Talent wins games, but teamwork win championships.” Curtis is an efficient machine made up of superior coaching, hard work, relentless dedication, and a group of kids who puts teamwork above individual success, and anyone who uses them as an excuse as the catalyst is unfair and its an insult to the hard work those young men put in day after day and year after year on that practice field. I think you submarine your position in the first paragraph. The talent level is heavily influenced by the normal distribution of the student population. As I pointed out, compare JC and its population vs Northlake Christian, Pope John Paul, Newman, St. Martins etc. JCs OL and TE on offense and DL and some LBs look very little like the ones of the other teams I mentioned. That means that out of their 300 kids, they have a VASTLY greater number of kids with that strength/size/ and athleticism. Just a quick, back of the envelope calculation looking at at maxprep.com rosters. Obviously not 100% accurate, but just looking at Newman vs John Curtis's rosters. Curtis's avg height and weight for players # 50-79 is 6 1/4" and 241lbs. Newman averages 5'11 and 197lbs. Hannan High averages 5'11 184lbs. All three schools have similar total student enrollment. Are you suggesting that simply because Curtis fields a larger team, that this boosts their average height over an inch, and their average weight around 40lbs? Your statement about "football numbers" is inaccurate, because going out for football doesn't make one taller and significantly larger (40+pounds). "football numbers" come from the number of total enrolled students. Curtis has 1600 less students from which to draw their "football numbers" The normal distribution of that much smaller pool should result in much smaller (physically) humans. As you well know, it doesn't. Since you like putting words in people's mouth, let me do the same while dismantling your agrument. So what you are saying is that every school who has basically the same enrollment, should have basically the same number of kids with strength/size/ and athleticism, right? That's your argument with Curtis and schools like N.L. Christian and Newman. The both have around 300 kids so there should be parity. That's your argument? Ok, fine, well let's look at these schools. West Jefferson (1474 students), H.L. Bourgeois (1463 students), Grace King (1381). According to your argument, then they should produce a football team with the same number of athletes as schools with similar enrollment numbers such as Zachary (1604), Hahnville (1492), Destrehan (1376) right? I mean, there is no way Zachary or Destrehan can have taller, bigger, heavier, and stronger, athletes than West Jeff or Grace King, right? No way that can be possible according to you, YET!!! Destrehan and Zachary make deep runs in the playoffs and are championship contenders year after year, whereas, West Jeff and Bourgeois struggles year after year just to win 3 games, and Grace King can't even get a football team together. So, would you agree that Destrehan and Zachary have a VASTLY greater number of kids with that strength/size/ and athleticism than West Jeff, Grace King and Bourgeois even though they have the same enrollment numbers? Come on, you can say it, we all know the answer to that already. Could you also say that because Destrehan and Zachary field a larger team that their average height over an inch, and their average weight around 40lbs is conceivable? Now, those are bigger schools above, so to be fair, let's look at the old Port Sulphur school, who was a Class 1A school with basically the same enrollment as schools like Ecole, East Iberville, Gueydan, etc. So, according to your argument, those school should have parity. There is no way Port Sulphur could have a VASTLY greater number of kids with that strength/size/ and athleticism than the schools I mentioned, right? Its very OBVIOUS, according to you, that Port Sulphur HAD TO go out and get all the best athletes in the surrounding area, which was Buras and Boothville. I mean how else, could PS be so much better than schools with similar enrollment numbers? would You like to explain that one because I'm confused as to how PS did this for over 30 years.
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Post by chalmetteowl on Aug 11, 2019 3:29:52 GMT -6
I think you submarine your position in the first paragraph. The talent level is heavily influenced by the normal distribution of the student population. As I pointed out, compare JC and its population vs Northlake Christian, Pope John Paul, Newman, St. Martins etc. JCs OL and TE on offense and DL and some LBs look very little like the ones of the other teams I mentioned. That means that out of their 300 kids, they have a VASTLY greater number of kids with that strength/size/ and athleticism. Just a quick, back of the envelope calculation looking at at maxprep.com rosters. Obviously not 100% accurate, but just looking at Newman vs John Curtis's rosters. Curtis's avg height and weight for players # 50-79 is 6 1/4" and 241lbs. Newman averages 5'11 and 197lbs. Hannan High averages 5'11 184lbs. All three schools have similar total student enrollment. Are you suggesting that simply because Curtis fields a larger team, that this boosts their average height over an inch, and their average weight around 40lbs? Your statement about "football numbers" is inaccurate, because going out for football doesn't make one taller and significantly larger (40+pounds). "football numbers" come from the number of total enrolled students. Curtis has 1600 less students from which to draw their "football numbers" The normal distribution of that much smaller pool should result in much smaller (physically) humans. As you well know, it doesn't. Since you like putting words in people's mouth, let me do the same while dismantling your agrument. So what you are saying is that every school who has basically the same enrollment, should have basically the same number of kids with strength/size/ and athleticism, right? That's your argument with Curtis and schools like N.L. Christian and Newman. The both have around 300 kids so there should be parity. That's your argument? Ok, fine, well let's look at these schools. West Jefferson (1474 students), H.L. Bourgeois (1463 students), Grace King (1381). According to your argument, then they should produce a football team with the same number of athletes as schools with similar enrollment numbers such as Zachary (1604), Hahnville (1492), Destrehan (1376) right? I mean, there is no way Zachary or Destrehan can have taller, bigger, heavier, and stronger, athletes than West Jeff or Grace King, right? No way that can be possible according to you, YET!!! Destrehan and Zachary make deep runs in the playoffs and are championship contenders year after year, whereas, West Jeff and Bourgeois struggles year after year just to win 3 games, and Grace King can't even get a football team together. So, would you agree that Destrehan and Zachary have a VASTLY greater number of kids with that strength/size/ and athleticism than West Jeff, Grace King and Bourgeois even though they have the same enrollment numbers? Come on, you can say it, we all know the answer to that already. Could you also say that because Destrehan and Zachary field a larger team that their average height over an inch, and their average weight around 40lbs is conceivable? Now, those are bigger schools above, so to be fair, let's look at the old Port Sulphur school, who was a Class 1A school with basically the same enrollment as schools like Ecole, East Iberville, Gueydan, etc. So, according to your argument, those school should have parity. There is no way Port Sulphur could have a VASTLY greater number of kids with that strength/size/ and athleticism than the schools I mentioned, right? Its very OBVIOUS, according to you, that Port Sulphur HAD TO go out and get all the best athletes in the surrounding area, which was Buras and Boothville. I mean how else, could PS be so much better than schools with similar enrollment numbers? would You like to explain that one because I'm confused as to how PS did this for over 30 years. In any other endeavour, if you had some entity as successful as John Curtis, the competitors to them would model their businesses like them. You can't talk about their history without talking about their competition. Has their competition really done the best they can? This ranges from when they used to play Clark and Cohen in the 2A district to Evangel, Rummel, and Catholic BR. We shouldn't be afraid to say some programs have the potential to do better even if they're already pretty good.
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Post by retired on Aug 11, 2019 6:55:59 GMT -6
I think you submarine your position in the first paragraph. The talent level is heavily influenced by the normal distribution of the student population. As I pointed out, compare JC and its population vs Northlake Christian, Pope John Paul, Newman, St. Martins etc. JCs OL and TE on offense and DL and some LBs look very little like the ones of the other teams I mentioned. That means that out of their 300 kids, they have a VASTLY greater number of kids with that strength/size/ and athleticism. Just a quick, back of the envelope calculation looking at at maxprep.com rosters. Obviously not 100% accurate, but just looking at Newman vs John Curtis's rosters. Curtis's avg height and weight for players # 50-79 is 6 1/4" and 241lbs. Newman averages 5'11 and 197lbs. Hannan High averages 5'11 184lbs. All three schools have similar total student enrollment. Are you suggesting that simply because Curtis fields a larger team, that this boosts their average height over an inch, and their average weight around 40lbs? Your statement about "football numbers" is inaccurate, because going out for football doesn't make one taller and significantly larger (40+pounds). "football numbers" come from the number of total enrolled students. Curtis has 1600 less students from which to draw their "football numbers" The normal distribution of that much smaller pool should result in much smaller (physically) humans. As you well know, it doesn't. Since you like putting words in people's mouth, let me do the same while dismantling your agrument. So what you are saying is that every school who has basically the same enrollment, should have basically the same number of kids with strength/size/ and athleticism, right? That's your argument with Curtis and schools like N.L. Christian and Newman. The both have around 300 kids so there should be parity. That's your argument? Ok, fine, well let's look at these schools. West Jefferson (1474 students), H.L. Bourgeois (1463 students), Grace King (1381). According to your argument, then they should produce a football team with the same number of athletes as schools with similar enrollment numbers such as Zachary (1604), Hahnville (1492), Destrehan (1376) right? I mean, there is no way Zachary or Destrehan can have taller, bigger, heavier, and stronger, athletes than West Jeff or Grace King, right? No way that can be possible according to you, YET!!! Destrehan and Zachary make deep runs in the playoffs and are championship contenders year after year, whereas, West Jeff and Bourgeois struggles year after year just to win 3 games, and Grace King can't even get a football team together. So, would you agree that Destrehan and Zachary have a VASTLY greater number of kids with that strength/size/ and athleticism than West Jeff, Grace King and Bourgeois even though they have the same enrollment numbers? Come on, you can say it, we all know the answer to that already. Could you also say that because Destrehan and Zachary field a larger team that their average height over an inch, and their average weight around 40lbs is conceivable? Now, those are bigger schools above, so to be fair, let's look at the old Port Sulphur school, who was a Class 1A school with basically the same enrollment as schools like Ecole, East Iberville, Gueydan, etc. So, according to your argument, those school should have parity. There is no way Port Sulphur could have a VASTLY greater number of kids with that strength/size/ and athleticism than the schools I mentioned, right? Its very OBVIOUS, according to you, that Port Sulphur HAD TO go out and get all the best athletes in the surrounding area, which was Buras and Boothville. I mean how else, could PS be so much better than schools with similar enrollment numbers? would You like to explain that one because I'm confused as to how PS did this for over 30 years. Southplaq, what words did I put in your mouth? I just quoted you didn't? West Jeff has been a bit below medicore for quite a while, but does its roster look vastly different than other schools like it? Zachary, Hahnville, Destrehan, WM are NOT like WM. I am curious if West Jeff has students walking the halls with the potential to look like those schools that just don't go out for ball. To me, what you are describing is a culture thing. Would be curious what Warren Easton and Karr would look like with different enrollment policies. Now, the JC thing is a culture thing as well, but as everyone knows it involves a CHOICE to ATTEND the school. Not just the choice to go out for football. Kids also have to choose to attend Newman, Riverside, John Paul etc. Over 40 years, no other private school of 300 students has ever looked like a JC team other than ECA for more than a few years. Fabacher isn't a wizard. Great coach sure, but he isn't changing somatotypes and other characteristics to that degree for that many years. Again, my point (and the point others are making but you seem to be missing) is that RIGHT OR WRONG, the fact that JC routinely had a roster that looked like a 5A school with 300 players was a major reason if not the starting point for the split.
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Post by Southplaq on Aug 11, 2019 14:05:35 GMT -6
Since you like putting words in people's mouth, let me do the same while dismantling your agrument. So what you are saying is that every school who has basically the same enrollment, should have basically the same number of kids with strength/size/ and athleticism, right? That's your argument with Curtis and schools like N.L. Christian and Newman. The both have around 300 kids so there should be parity. That's your argument? Ok, fine, well let's look at these schools. West Jefferson (1474 students), H.L. Bourgeois (1463 students), Grace King (1381). According to your argument, then they should produce a football team with the same number of athletes as schools with similar enrollment numbers such as Zachary (1604), Hahnville (1492), Destrehan (1376) right? I mean, there is no way Zachary or Destrehan can have taller, bigger, heavier, and stronger, athletes than West Jeff or Grace King, right? No way that can be possible according to you, YET!!! Destrehan and Zachary make deep runs in the playoffs and are championship contenders year after year, whereas, West Jeff and Bourgeois struggles year after year just to win 3 games, and Grace King can't even get a football team together. So, would you agree that Destrehan and Zachary have a VASTLY greater number of kids with that strength/size/ and athleticism than West Jeff, Grace King and Bourgeois even though they have the same enrollment numbers? Come on, you can say it, we all know the answer to that already. Could you also say that because Destrehan and Zachary field a larger team that their average height over an inch, and their average weight around 40lbs is conceivable? Now, those are bigger schools above, so to be fair, let's look at the old Port Sulphur school, who was a Class 1A school with basically the same enrollment as schools like Ecole, East Iberville, Gueydan, etc. So, according to your argument, those school should have parity. There is no way Port Sulphur could have a VASTLY greater number of kids with that strength/size/ and athleticism than the schools I mentioned, right? Its very OBVIOUS, according to you, that Port Sulphur HAD TO go out and get all the best athletes in the surrounding area, which was Buras and Boothville. I mean how else, could PS be so much better than schools with similar enrollment numbers? would You like to explain that one because I'm confused as to how PS did this for over 30 years. Southplaq, what words did I put in your mouth? I just quoted you didn't? West Jeff has been a bit below medicore for quite a while, but does its roster look vastly different than other schools like it? Zachary, Hahnville, Destrehan, WM are NOT like WM. I am curious if West Jeff has students walking the halls with the potential to look like those schools that just don't go out for ball. To me, what you are describing is a culture thing. Would be curious what Warren Easton and Karr would look like with different enrollment policies. Now, the JC thing is a culture thing as well, but as everyone knows it involves a CHOICE to ATTEND the school. Not just the choice to go out for football. Kids also have to choose to attend Newman, Riverside, John Paul etc. Over 40 years, no other private school of 300 students has ever looked like a JC team other than ECA for more than a few years. Fabacher isn't a wizard. Great coach sure, but he isn't changing somatotypes and other characteristics to that degree for that many years. Again, my point (and the point others are making but you seem to be missing) is that RIGHT OR WRONG, the fact that JC routinely had a roster that looked like a 5A school with 300 players was a major reason if not the starting point for the split. Great discussion, man!
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Post by retired on Aug 11, 2019 14:26:13 GMT -6
Southplaq, what words did I put in your mouth? I just quoted you didn't? West Jeff has been a bit below medicore for quite a while, but does its roster look vastly different than other schools like it? Zachary, Hahnville, Destrehan, WM are NOT like WM. I am curious if West Jeff has students walking the halls with the potential to look like those schools that just don't go out for ball. To me, what you are describing is a culture thing. Would be curious what Warren Easton and Karr would look like with different enrollment policies. Now, the JC thing is a culture thing as well, but as everyone knows it involves a CHOICE to ATTEND the school. Not just the choice to go out for football. Kids also have to choose to attend Newman, Riverside, John Paul etc. Over 40 years, no other private school of 300 students has ever looked like a JC team other than ECA for more than a few years. Fabacher isn't a wizard. Great coach sure, but he isn't changing somatotypes and other characteristics to that degree for that many years. Again, my point (and the point others are making but you seem to be missing) is that RIGHT OR WRONG, the fact that JC routinely had a roster that looked like a 5A school with 300 players was a major reason if not the starting point for the split. Great discussion, man! I think a point that never gets stated is that some people seem to think that if they did what curtis did "recruited",(open enrollment if public school), held back etc, that they would have the same level of success. That is simply false. Curtis, WM, ECA, etc all have done some questionable things in their football program history. Questionable in the sense that to many it may seem like the football program comes first, the high school comes second. Regardless of those opinions though, one can not discount the hard work, preparation, sacrifice and dedication as major contributors to their respective successes. JT hasn't won over 500 games just because of the things their program is accused of doing (most notably recruiting and holdbacks) Now, he might not have won 500 if those things DIDN'T happen...but just doing those things doesn't guarantee wins.
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Post by Southplaq on Aug 11, 2019 14:33:21 GMT -6
Since you like putting words in people's mouth, let me do the same while dismantling your agrument. So what you are saying is that every school who has basically the same enrollment, should have basically the same number of kids with strength/size/ and athleticism, right? That's your argument with Curtis and schools like N.L. Christian and Newman. The both have around 300 kids so there should be parity. That's your argument? Ok, fine, well let's look at these schools. West Jefferson (1474 students), H.L. Bourgeois (1463 students), Grace King (1381). According to your argument, then they should produce a football team with the same number of athletes as schools with similar enrollment numbers such as Zachary (1604), Hahnville (1492), Destrehan (1376) right? I mean, there is no way Zachary or Destrehan can have taller, bigger, heavier, and stronger, athletes than West Jeff or Grace King, right? No way that can be possible according to you, YET!!! Destrehan and Zachary make deep runs in the playoffs and are championship contenders year after year, whereas, West Jeff and Bourgeois struggles year after year just to win 3 games, and Grace King can't even get a football team together. So, would you agree that Destrehan and Zachary have a VASTLY greater number of kids with that strength/size/ and athleticism than West Jeff, Grace King and Bourgeois even though they have the same enrollment numbers? Come on, you can say it, we all know the answer to that already. Could you also say that because Destrehan and Zachary field a larger team that their average height over an inch, and their average weight around 40lbs is conceivable? Now, those are bigger schools above, so to be fair, let's look at the old Port Sulphur school, who was a Class 1A school with basically the same enrollment as schools like Ecole, East Iberville, Gueydan, etc. So, according to your argument, those school should have parity. There is no way Port Sulphur could have a VASTLY greater number of kids with that strength/size/ and athleticism than the schools I mentioned, right? Its very OBVIOUS, according to you, that Port Sulphur HAD TO go out and get all the best athletes in the surrounding area, which was Buras and Boothville. I mean how else, could PS be so much better than schools with similar enrollment numbers? would You like to explain that one because I'm confused as to how PS did this for over 30 years. Southplaq, what words did I put in your mouth? I just quoted you didn't? West Jeff has been a bit below medicore for quite a while, but does its roster look vastly different than other schools like it? Zachary, Hahnville, Destrehan, WM are NOT like WM. I am curious if West Jeff has students walking the halls with the potential to look like those schools that just don't go out for ball. To me, what you are describing is a culture thing. Would be curious what Warren Easton and Karr would look like with different enrollment policies. Now, the JC thing is a culture thing as well, but as everyone knows it involves a CHOICE to ATTEND the school. Not just the choice to go out for football. Kids also have to choose to attend Newman, Riverside, John Paul etc. Over 40 years, no other private school of 300 students has ever looked like a JC team other than ECA for more than a few years. Fabacher isn't a wizard. Great coach sure, but he isn't changing somatotypes and other characteristics to that degree for that many years. Again, my point (and the point others are making but you seem to be missing) is that RIGHT OR WRONG, the fact that JC routinely had a roster that looked like a 5A school with 300 players was a major reason if not the starting point for the split. I agree that JC (and ECA) were the catalysts for the split. I'm just asking was it completely justified? Because JC's kids are bigger and what some claim to be more talented than schools with similar enrollment number (as I have proven incorrectly with the lack of individual achievements), then they are "cheating", so the playing field isn't level. That's what the entire argument was based on as far as LHSAA coaches were concerned. Yes, Curtis has won more state championships than other schools, but if JC has such this huge advantage, then shouldn't they have won every championship before the split? I mean, how could public schools like Salmen, Broadmoor, and Wossman, beat them with just regular kids from the neighborhood? Like I said, do Private schools have an inherent advantage?, yes, simply because they are not restricted by attendance zones, so any student and any student-athlete has the right to go there; whereas, public schools are supposed to be help by rigorous attendance zone standards (which we all know aren't true). Now concerning JC's roster. Like I have said numerous times, if a school has an enrollment of 300 kids (lets assume 40% boys) then that's 120 boys in your school. If you can't get a roster of 80 players, then that's a different issue. I really wish you guys would quit looking a piece of paper with players' height and weight on them and base your entire argument on it, because they can be very misleading. You all seem to miss the connection that size doesn't translate into being a good player. JC can have an O-line/D-line that averages 280 pounds, but does that mean that they are high school superstars? You guys completely overlook at these massive JC kids are mostly 1, 2 star players, with a couple that might be 3 and 4 star. JC had lots of players who were 6'3'-6'6 and 290-315 pounds who never did anything after high school and if they went to college it was either to a junior college, or they sat on the bench at a DII school or a very small D1 school, such as Tulane. But again, its an perspective from people on the outside looking in. Go to the All-Metro teams in New Orleans and its surrounding areas and you will see how many of these "College roster size" guys make those achievement list.
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Post by iamray on Aug 11, 2019 22:17:48 GMT -6
Just the type of defensive deflection I expected. I've seen it firsthand, bro. That's why I said what I did. Was Willie Allen on one of the 4th or 5th grade teams? Nope. Your statement about the feeder school applies to most successful programs so to hell with that argument. What separates Curtis from everyone else is the players. To hell with your sanctimonious BS about coming to "see all the hard work from the 8th graders." Like I said, most programs work just as hard but haven't come close to the success of JC. Why? Players. A school with 300 students to make a team from should not be able to consistently dominate teams from enrollments of 1,000 - 2,000. Don't tell me they just work harder than every one else. Sell that bs to someone else. You're right. Curtis isn't filled with "superstar" athletes. That's why they go out and get the best they can in that area, i.e. Willie Allen. Willie had a terrible home situation. I get that. But I stated facts related directly to his football story at Curtis. If you don't like it, then your problem is with the truth. Go ahead and enlighten us, man. Tell me how many times football coaches at John Curtis have invited "average" students to live with them so that they can continue to attend school at John Curtis. Please, enlighten me because I'm sick of this sanctimonious BS about how they "work hard." Most teams work hard. Some just work hard with bigger and stronger players. Its not a god damn deflection, its the truth. Its obvious that your mind is already made up about Curtis, so I won't try to get into a debate with you about what the hell I know goes on by being involved in the school for 15 years. And its more than obvious that you won't get off your butt and come and see what I see on the practice fields and in the weight rooms, so I have nothing further to say about this. It's not my job to defend Curtis, is my duty to tell what I see FIRST HAND! So keep living in your ignorance and be happy because honesltly you don't know a goddamn thing about Curtis. You take one story about Allen, that you don't have all the facts on, but you still pounce upon it and run your mouth like its the norm. But like I said, you don't know a god damn thing about what goes on at that school and the numerous non-athletic kids that gets help year after year. I'm there tutoring at the school year after year and I see what's going on. You just love pointing your finger at crap and what you should be pointing it at is how many rules Neville breaks and how they recruit star players illegally. Shame on you, SP. You've been involved with John Curtis CHRISTIAN for 15 years and no one has taught you not to take the Lord's name in vain? You're a classy representation of the school. Some tutor for a Christian school, eh. Also, you sure do curse a lot for a "moderator" who is supposed to moderate against the type of language you seem so comfortable speaking. Will you moderate yourself? Probably not. You seem perfectly 'ok' with breaking the rules you are assigned to enforce. Your response is an absolute joke. Nothing in there but one man screaming like a child. No substance. Willie Allen's story is fairly well-known. I gave you the facts as presented in the papers who quoted the coach and Willie, himself. What am I missing? How many times has a JC coach taken in a non-athlete and provided food, clothing and shelter? I bet there are far more Willie Allens than we know about. That's cool. Your response reeks of naivety. You don't honestly believe JC just works harder in the weight room and on the practice fields. You tote the party line and shout down anyone who says otherwise. It is really, really simple. I don't believe you. The enrollment, the nonstop success against schools with much larger enrollment numbers (Longview, Hoover, etc...). No doubt JT is one of the goats and much of his success comes from his football and management acumen, But, but, but....you know, having bigger players than most usually helps, too. Oh, and just for fun, who did Neville recruit illegally?
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Post by iamray on Aug 11, 2019 22:25:09 GMT -6
Southplaq, what words did I put in your mouth? I just quoted you didn't? West Jeff has been a bit below medicore for quite a while, but does its roster look vastly different than other schools like it? Zachary, Hahnville, Destrehan, WM are NOT like WM. I am curious if West Jeff has students walking the halls with the potential to look like those schools that just don't go out for ball. To me, what you are describing is a culture thing. Would be curious what Warren Easton and Karr would look like with different enrollment policies. Now, the JC thing is a culture thing as well, but as everyone knows it involves a CHOICE to ATTEND the school. Not just the choice to go out for football. Kids also have to choose to attend Newman, Riverside, John Paul etc. Over 40 years, no other private school of 300 students has ever looked like a JC team other than ECA for more than a few years. Fabacher isn't a wizard. Great coach sure, but he isn't changing somatotypes and other characteristics to that degree for that many years. Again, my point (and the point others are making but you seem to be missing) is that RIGHT OR WRONG, the fact that JC routinely had a roster that looked like a 5A school with 300 players was a major reason if not the starting point for the split. I agree that JC (and ECA) were the catalysts for the split. I'm just asking was it completely justified? Because JC's kids are bigger and what some claim to be more talented than schools with similar enrollment number (as I have proven incorrectly with the lack of individual achievements), then they are "cheating", so the playing field isn't level. That's what the entire argument was based on as far as LHSAA coaches were concerned. Yes, Curtis has won more state championships than other schools, but if JC has such this huge advantage, then shouldn't they have won every championship before the split? I mean, how could public schools like Salmen, Broadmoor, and Wossman, beat them with just regular kids from the neighborhood? Like I said, do Private schools have an inherent advantage?, yes, simply because they are not restricted by attendance zones, so any student and any student-athlete has the right to go there; whereas, public schools are supposed to be help by rigorous attendance zone standards (which we all know aren't true). Now concerning JC's roster. Like I have said numerous times, if a school has an enrollment of 300 kids (lets assume 40% boys) then that's 120 boys in your school. If you can't get a roster of 80 players, then that's a different issue. I really wish you guys would quit looking a piece of paper with players' height and weight on them and base your entire argument on it, because they can be very misleading. You all seem to miss the connection that size doesn't translate into being a good player. JC can have an O-line/D-line that averages 280 pounds, but does that mean that they are high school superstars? You guys completely overlook at these massive JC kids are mostly 1, 2 star players, with a couple that might be 3 and 4 star. JC had lots of players who were 6'3'-6'6 and 290-315 pounds who never did anything after high school and if they went to college it was either to a junior college, or they sat on the bench at a DII school or a very small D1 school, such as Tulane. But again, its an perspective from people on the outside looking in. Go to the All-Metro teams in New Orleans and its surrounding areas and you will see how many of these "College roster size" guys make those achievement list.
"JC had lots of players who were 6'3'-6'6 and 290-315 pounds who never did anything after high school" There it is. JC had plenty of players 6'3-6'6, who weighed 290-315 pounds. What they did AFTER they left Curtis is irrelevant to the discussion. We aren't talking college ball, dude. This is the point you keep missing. A school as small as JC, realistically, should not have "lots of 6'3, 290 pound" players year after year after year after year.....you see where I am going. Most schools hardly ever have players this large. You say Curtis has had lots of them. WE KNOW. No one is saying the system isn't great. No one is saying JT isn't a goat. But you'd be a damn fool to ignore the sheer size of players coming from such a small school every single year.
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Post by iamray on Aug 11, 2019 22:41:43 GMT -6
Curtis has a coed high school enrollment of right around if not under 300 kids. ECA currently enrolls less than that. West Monroe has an enrollment of over 2000 students. John Ehret has an enrollment of over 2000 students. That is the reason. Take ECA or Curtis's roster, and compare them to a Northlake Christian, a Hannan High (both pre and post Katrina. An even better example might be Newman. Newman has gotten its share of top tier athletes the last 30 years or so, but they don't look anything like Curtis because Curtis gets the top tier athletes, but also the great HS football players. Just keep in mind that high school football games are won by great high school football players. As counterintuitive as it seems, D1 athletes are not necessarily the best HS football players. You aren't wrong that JC isn't the destination for every top football player in the Orleans metro area. And maybe some of the attention/blame is undeserved, but JC and ECA are most definitely the main catalyst for the current playoff system. Total Enrolment numbers doesn't matter here and is useless in this argument. You have to use football numbers, specifically. Curtis might have 1,600 less students than Ehret or WM, but the football numbers are quite the same. Curtis has over 200 boys at their school and field a team of about 110 kids, which is more than Ehret and comparable to WM. So, if Curtis gets all the top tier athletes in the area, then common sense should tell you that they should be putting more players on the All-State team than surrounding schools, who have the same number of football players, but gets lower-tier athletes, not less. I have to somewhat disagree that high school football games are won by great high school football players. That isn't the case most of the time. Teamwork, dedication, preparation and superior coaching wins games in more cases than talent does. Case in point, on paper, year after year, St. Augustine is more talented than Curtis, yet they can't beat them. Its easy for people, on the outside looking in, to say that Curtis has great football players, but my advice for those same people is to come to the school and watch practices of the incoming 8th grade and freshman classes and you will see than these aren't the greatest players or athletes in the area. Likewise, come to the lower school and watch the 4th, 5th, and 6th graders dress out in full pads and run the same exact plays as the high school over and over and over for an hour a day, 5 days a week. No, Curtis doesn't have the best players and athletes in the area, they are just great at what they do, and THAT IS WHAT PEOPLE MISS! As the great Michael Jordan said, “Talent wins games, but teamwork win championships.” Curtis is an efficient machine made up of superior coaching, hard work, relentless dedication, and a group of kids who puts teamwork above individual success, and anyone who uses them as an excuse as the catalyst is unfair and its an insult to the hard work those young men put in day after day and year after year on that practice field. "Total Enrolment numbers doesn't matter here and is useless in this argument. You have to use football numbers, specifically." Haha, well where do those football numbers come from? That's right. Enrollment. Unless you know of a school who fields a team full of kids who do not attend the school. "Curtis might have 1,600 less students than Ehret or WM, but the football numbers are quite the same." THIS IS THE POINT WE ARE TRYING TO MAKE TO YOU. GOOD LORD!
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Post by chalmetteowl on Aug 12, 2019 5:19:47 GMT -6
I agree that JC (and ECA) were the catalysts for the split. I'm just asking was it completely justified? Because JC's kids are bigger and what some claim to be more talented than schools with similar enrollment number (as I have proven incorrectly with the lack of individual achievements), then they are "cheating", so the playing field isn't level. That's what the entire argument was based on as far as LHSAA coaches were concerned. Yes, Curtis has won more state championships than other schools, but if JC has such this huge advantage, then shouldn't they have won every championship before the split? I mean, how could public schools like Salmen, Broadmoor, and Wossman, beat them with just regular kids from the neighborhood? Like I said, do Private schools have an inherent advantage?, yes, simply because they are not restricted by attendance zones, so any student and any student-athlete has the right to go there; whereas, public schools are supposed to be help by rigorous attendance zone standards (which we all know aren't true). Now concerning JC's roster. Like I have said numerous times, if a school has an enrollment of 300 kids (lets assume 40% boys) then that's 120 boys in your school. If you can't get a roster of 80 players, then that's a different issue. I really wish you guys would quit looking a piece of paper with players' height and weight on them and base your entire argument on it, because they can be very misleading. You all seem to miss the connection that size doesn't translate into being a good player. JC can have an O-line/D-line that averages 280 pounds, but does that mean that they are high school superstars? You guys completely overlook at these massive JC kids are mostly 1, 2 star players, with a couple that might be 3 and 4 star. JC had lots of players who were 6'3'-6'6 and 290-315 pounds who never did anything after high school and if they went to college it was either to a junior college, or they sat on the bench at a DII school or a very small D1 school, such as Tulane. But again, its an perspective from people on the outside looking in. Go to the All-Metro teams in New Orleans and its surrounding areas and you will see how many of these "College roster size" guys make those achievement list.
"JC had lots of players who were 6'3'-6'6 and 290-315 pounds who never did anything after high school" There it is. JC had plenty of players 6'3-6'6, who weighed 290-315 pounds. What they did AFTER they left Curtis is irrelevant to the discussion. We aren't talking college ball, dude. This is the point you keep missing. A school as small as JC, realistically, should not have "lots of 6'3, 290 pound" players year after year after year after year.....you see where I am going. Most schools hardly ever have players this large. You say Curtis has had lots of them. WE KNOW. No one is saying the system isn't great. No one is saying JT isn't a goat. But you'd be a damn fool to ignore the sheer size of players coming from such a small school every single year. I guess what we're trying to answer is, what is Curtis's fair share of that type of talent being that they have give or take 400 kids??? Why are other schools not getting their fair share???
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Post by indy on Aug 12, 2019 6:14:44 GMT -6
If John Curtis was in Kinder it would look like Kinder, if it were in Many it would look like Many if it were in Crowley it would look like ND. All three have expanded zones and great football traditions. It happens to be near NOLA so they obviously have ability to draw more and better athletes. My question is If Curtis is as wholesome, economical, and such a wonderful academic school like southplaq describes it. Then why hasn't their enrollment skyrocketed over the years? Why is it the same now as it was in the 70’s?
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Post by chalmetteowl on Aug 12, 2019 7:38:52 GMT -6
If John Curtis was in Kinder it would look like Kinder, if it were in Many it would look like Many if it were in Crowley it would look like ND. All three have expanded zones and great football traditions. It happens to be near NOLA so they obviously have ability to draw more and better athletes. My question is If Curtis is as wholesome, economical, and such a wonderful academic school like southplaq describes it. Then why hasn't their enrollment skyrocketed over the years? Why is it the same now as it was in the 70’s? you need buildings to have enrollment... You can't have a thousand kids with the buildings for 400
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Post by indy on Aug 12, 2019 8:03:50 GMT -6
If John Curtis was in Kinder it would look like Kinder, if it were in Many it would look like Many if it were in Crowley it would look like ND. All three have expanded zones and great football traditions. It happens to be near NOLA so they obviously have ability to draw more and better athletes. My question is If Curtis is as wholesome, economical, and such a wonderful academic school like southplaq describes it. Then why hasn't their enrollment skyrocketed over the years? Why is it the same now as it was in the 70’s? you need buildings to have enrollment... You can't have a thousand kids with the buildings for 400 Imagine James Earl Jones voice “build it and they will come” It’s hard to find a comparison but let’s look at Teurlings Catholic. 25 years ago they were a small 2A school with a dilapidated facility and no athletic fields. The area grew in population and they are now a medium size 4A school with a fantastic campus including the best athletic fields (boys and girls) around the area if not the state. “Build it and they will come”
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Post by thedomeranger on Aug 12, 2019 9:31:51 GMT -6
you need buildings to have enrollment... You can't have a thousand kids with the buildings for 400 Imagine James Earl Jones voice “build it and they will come” It’s hard to find a comparison but let’s look at Teurlings Catholic. 25 years ago they were a small 2A school with a dilapidated facility and no athletic fields. The area grew in population and they are now a medium size 4A school with a fantastic campus including the best athletic fields (boys and girls) around the area if not the state. “Build it and they will come” Buildings are an issue and expensive. The payback is not immediate. The bigger issue for most privates is getting qualified teachers who are willing to get lower pay than public school teachers, often significantly lower. It needs to be well thought out and planned for sustained attendance. As to Curtis getting really good high school athletes, look at where they are located and the success they have had. When was JC founded and when did they win their first championship? 13 years, same with ECA. But they are both located in an area rife with talent.Winning is the best recruiter, particularly for 6'" 190 pound high schoolers who want to play on a winning team. I don't know what the costs are or what the individual schools tuition assistance programs look like but I would not be surprised if JC is a relatively cheap private (I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't either). As I have said in another post, based solely on my observation of games I saw, JC has been exceptionally well coached since at least the late 70s. I believe that coaching can get you more dividends, year in year out, in HS Football than either of the next 2 levels of football.
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Post by retired on Aug 12, 2019 17:38:14 GMT -6
you need buildings to have enrollment... You can't have a thousand kids with the buildings for 400 Imagine James Earl Jones voice “build it and they will come” It’s hard to find a comparison but let’s look at Teurlings Catholic. 25 years ago they were a small 2A school with a dilapidated facility and no athletic fields. The area grew in population and they are now a medium size 4A school with a fantastic campus including the best athletic fields (boys and girls) around the area if not the state. “Build it and they will come” Keep in mind that unlike Teurlings Catholic, ND, Jesuit etc, JCCS is a privately owned business. It is not supported by Parishioners or by a Diocese. If it overextends in debt and can't make its debt payments, the Curtis children don't eat. Without going too deep into managerial finance and accounting, there is a sweet spot in enrollment that maximizes the total contribution margin. Exceeding that number could trigger new Fixed costs which the total contribution margin could not cover. That combined with the fact that Jesuit, and Holy Cross have over 170 years of history, and Brother Martin 150 years, with St. Aug at almost 70 years and all have a VERY tradition based enrollment and dedicated alumni.Rummel is much younger at Only around 60 years and De Le Salle is about 70 but provide the Catholic (as opposed to non denominational) that many in NOLA look for. Mt. Carmel and Ursuline have even longer histories (Ursuline almost 300 years old) and Sacred Heart is about 130. Then add in the St. martins, Country Day , McGehee and Newman for those looking for $20,000+ tuition type schools. Essentially, there is a lot of competition, and a lot of risk trying to expand.
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Post by indy on Aug 12, 2019 18:38:24 GMT -6
Imagine James Earl Jones voice “build it and they will come” It’s hard to find a comparison but let’s look at Teurlings Catholic. 25 years ago they were a small 2A school with a dilapidated facility and no athletic fields. The area grew in population and they are now a medium size 4A school with a fantastic campus including the best athletic fields (boys and girls) around the area if not the state. “Build it and they will come” Keep in mind that unlike Teurlings Catholic, ND, Jesuit etc, JCCS is a privately owned business. It is not supported by Parishioners or by a Diocese. If it overextends in debt and can't make its debt payments, the Curtis children don't eat. Without going too deep into managerial finance and accounting, there is a sweet spot in enrollment that maximizes the total contribution margin. Exceeding that number could trigger new Fixed costs which the total contribution margin could not cover. That combined with the fact that Jesuit, and Holy Cross have over 170 years of history, and Brother Martin 150 years, with St. Aug at almost 70 years and all have a VERY tradition based enrollment and dedicated alumni.Rummel is much younger at Only around 60 years and De Le Salle is about 70 but provide the Catholic (as opposed to non denominational) that many in NOLA look for. Mt. Carmel and Ursuline have even longer histories (Ursuline almost 300 years old) and Sacred Heart is about 130. Then add in the St. martins, Country Day , McGehee and Newman for those looking for $20,000+ tuition type schools. Essentially, there is a lot of competition, and a lot of risk trying to expand. I’m fully aware of all that. I was trying to make a point. Curtis doesn’t want to grow. They have no interest in saving more souls or furthering their congregation. Southplaq painted a picture of a wonderful educational oasis that was cheaper that the Catholic League snd because of that drew people from all over. Given their success in all sports I’m guessing of the 360 students the vast majority are there to win a championship. With that said I do believe JT and his family/coaching staff could win anywhere they would go public or private.
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Post by publicgradprivatedad on Sept 18, 2019 8:06:06 GMT -6
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Post by retired on Sept 18, 2019 21:18:36 GMT -6
What they will do? No clue. However, I think what they SHOULD do is either the Dome, or play 4 individual championship games (either home sites, or a site that the teams agree on). I think trying to replicate a multiple game event like the Superdome Classic in a venue other than the Dome just brings too many variables (weather being the primary one)
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Post by publicgradprivatedad on Sept 19, 2019 15:25:41 GMT -6
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Post by coach4christ on Sept 20, 2019 7:42:54 GMT -6
personally I would like to see the games at several college venues. Have two classes at several fields such as UL, ULM, Tech, Tiger Stadiuim, Northwestern, Mcneese, etc. Rotate the site for the classes each year. Would be a cool thing. Same for all sports.
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Post by btown on Sept 20, 2019 9:38:50 GMT -6
I think this will tell us which side is needed the most. Which side will be the most successful?
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Post by thedomeranger on Sept 21, 2019 8:44:15 GMT -6
I think this will tell us which side is needed the most. Which side will be the most successful? Will it? Or will it show everyone this is a no win situation? It would be a nightmare for the non selects if the private schools, in particular, were in a separate organization that decided to officially allow athletic scholarships and open recruiting. But that would also likely create some issues for the smaller and less affluent privates. The desire to totally split by the private’s is understandable since LHSAA seems to be structured against them but I think that a complete split harms everyone more than the current system in the long term, even if it doesn’t in the short term. And I think the current system stinks.
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Post by indy on Sept 21, 2019 9:17:02 GMT -6
I think this will tell us which side is needed the most. Which side will be the most successful? I disagree. Why can’t both venues have success? We play separately in the playoffs so why not have separate finals? It seems kind of hypocritical to me to assume we are together on week 15 but not 11-14.
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Post by Southplaq on Oct 1, 2019 15:59:20 GMT -6
5 pages later....it’s Juicy
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