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Post by retired on Jun 29, 2019 18:23:48 GMT -6
I believe that one of the most troublesome factors in this whole debate/discussion/problem etc. is that people (fans and principals alike) paint with a broad brush. John Curtis and Evangel aren't like say De La Salle or Parkview Baptist or St. Charles Catholic or Newman or Catholic N.I. or Notre Dame, which aren't like Pope John Paul or St. Thomas Aquinas etc. Several times in this split discussion I have brought up what I think is one of the prime examples of why some support the split. Mid 1990's Evangel vs St. James and Independence. Very solid programs year in year out that when they get that once a decade or so group can make a real run running into a program that is "a bit different". I think that is the concern. That schools like ND, Catholic N.I. etc will become like ECA in the Mid 1990s. Evangel and Curtis are who they are bc they're consistent. You never see them losing 5 games and losing round 1 in a down year. It is just quibbling over vocabulary but the problem is they are consistently FAR BEYOND any other team with 250-300 kids on their roster. That is the problem. It isn't that ECA and JC are always good teams. The problem is that they "consistently" advanced 4 to 5 rounds in the playoffs at the highest classifications and had multiple Power 5 scholarship players as well as an organized system of holding back kids while only enrolling 250-300 kids. I believe that is part of the problem. As indy points out ND currently isn't like that. ECA currently touts on their own website 107 former players who were offered D1 scholarships. They came onto the scene in the early 90s, so they have been playing football about 30 years? In an article written in 2015, the report states that roughly 40 JC football players were awarded scholarships in the 13 years between 2002 and 2015. 40 in 13 years. Other schools with 250-300 kids in school don't look like that. St. Charles Catholic, Newman, Country Day, Parkview Baptist don't look like that.
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laprepfb
All-District 1st Team
Posts: 227
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Post by laprepfb on Jun 30, 2019 15:50:43 GMT -6
I can agree with the point about enrollment made by south Plaquemine Just understand this too How do you justify kicking out the private’s when the LEA’s offer certain public schools the same advantages of attendance zones the private’s havw? Wouldn’t it be better to come back together with a multiplier than to kick people out? Private’s don't want the upper hand Just want fair treatment Yea, to piggyback on that, why are the rules different throughout the state? We don't have whatever weird open enrollment you speak of down in your area. Schools like Neville, West Monroe and such have attendance zones they are required to follow. In other words, they cannot legally have kids from all over the parish like what some schools down south do. I suppose this is because of population? I seriously don't know but I find it incredibly convoluted to have different attendance boundary rules for the same types of schools located in separate parts of the state. It can't be more uniform than that? Yes and no on Monroe City and Ouachita Parish schools having zones they must follow... There is also the matter of "failing schools".At one point, Wossman and Carroll were both failing, therefore any of those kids could go to Neville, which was not failing. This led to Neville getting pretty much any standout football player in the city they wanted, i.e. Kevonte Turpin, whose brother did not go to Neville, but stayed at his "home zone" school. I'm sure there are many other examples. I'm also not accusing Neville of any wrongdoing. Just pointing out that every kid at Neville does not live in the Neville zone (that zone is another story for another day, going back to the Ruple and Brown days). This is what a lot of public school supporters don't understand about this whole situation. There are very very few public schools in this state comprised of only students who live in that school's zone. They have done a great job of uniting, however, and painting privates as bad guys.
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Post by retired on Jun 30, 2019 16:23:14 GMT -6
Yea, to piggyback on that, why are the rules different throughout the state? We don't have whatever weird open enrollment you speak of down in your area. Schools like Neville, West Monroe and such have attendance zones they are required to follow. In other words, they cannot legally have kids from all over the parish like what some schools down south do. I suppose this is because of population? I seriously don't know but I find it incredibly convoluted to have different attendance boundary rules for the same types of schools located in separate parts of the state. It can't be more uniform than that? Yes and no on Monroe City and Ouachita Parish schools having zones they must follow... There is also the matter of "failing schools".At one point, Wossman and Carroll were both failing, therefore any of those kids could go to Neville, which was not failing. This led to Neville getting pretty much any standout football player in the city they wanted, i.e. Kevonte Turpin, whose brother did not go to Neville, but stayed at his "home zone" school. I'm sure there are many other examples. I'm also not accusing Neville of any wrongdoing. Just pointing out that every kid at Neville does not live in the Neville zone (that zone is another story for another day, going back to the Ruple and Brown days). This is what a lot of public school supporters don't understand about this whole situation. There are very very few public schools in this state comprised of only students who live in that school's zone. They have done a great job of uniting, however, and painting privates as bad guys. And to be honest, all of that painting is basically based on the performance of two private outliers with regards to football. I realize that football is king, but I find it comical that this was all started due to football, which is more balanced than other sports (particularly baseball, softball, soccer, or volleyball)
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Post by indy on Jun 30, 2019 16:34:44 GMT -6
Yes and no on Monroe City and Ouachita Parish schools having zones they must follow... There is also the matter of "failing schools".At one point, Wossman and Carroll were both failing, therefore any of those kids could go to Neville, which was not failing. This led to Neville getting pretty much any standout football player in the city they wanted, i.e. Kevonte Turpin, whose brother did not go to Neville, but stayed at his "home zone" school. I'm sure there are many other examples. I'm also not accusing Neville of any wrongdoing. Just pointing out that every kid at Neville does not live in the Neville zone (that zone is another story for another day, going back to the Ruple and Brown days). This is what a lot of public school supporters don't understand about this whole situation. There are very very few public schools in this state comprised of only students who live in that school's zone. They have done a great job of uniting, however, and painting privates as bad guys. And to be honest, all of that painting is basically based on the performance of two private outliers with regards to football. I realize that football is king, but I find it comical that this was all started due to football, which is more balanced than other sports (particularly baseball, softball, soccer, or volleyball) A public school hadn’t won a championship in volleyball in over 20 years. Yet it’s the football fans, coaches, and principals that whine, kick , and scream. Maybe they could learn to man up from their female counterparts
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Post by chalmetteowl on Jul 1, 2019 6:44:50 GMT -6
And to be honest, all of that painting is basically based on the performance of two private outliers with regards to football. I realize that football is king, but I find it comical that this was all started due to football, which is more balanced than other sports (particularly baseball, softball, soccer, or volleyball) A public school hadn’t won a championship in volleyball in over 20 years. Yet it’s the football fans, coaches, and principals that whine, kick , and scream. Maybe they could learn to man up from their female counterparts I'm pretty sure that's not true... Ben Franklin and Mandeville and Fontainebleau and Assumption have great programs
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Post by retired on Jul 1, 2019 6:56:59 GMT -6
A public school hadn’t won a championship in volleyball in over 20 years. Yet it’s the football fans, coaches, and principals that whine, kick , and scream. Maybe they could learn to man up from their female counterparts I'm pretty sure that's not true... Ben Franklin and Mandeville and Fontainebleau and Assumption have great programs Not really. Mandeville is pretty avg, Fontainebleau had a run before their coach left for a ...shocking... private school. I believe they won it in 2012 So yes it has been less than 20 years for FHS and Franklin (last championship was 2003 I believe). indy is factually incorrect in his statement. But that doesn't change the message of the post, which is that of all team sports in the LHSAA, girls volleyball is probably the most slanted towards private school success. Girls/boys soccer might be right there with it. All are have seen private schools dominate to a far far greater degree than in football yet football was the catalyst for the split.
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Post by iamray on Jul 1, 2019 7:39:48 GMT -6
Yea, to piggyback on that, why are the rules different throughout the state? We don't have whatever weird open enrollment you speak of down in your area. Schools like Neville, West Monroe and such have attendance zones they are required to follow. In other words, they cannot legally have kids from all over the parish like what some schools down south do. I suppose this is because of population? I seriously don't know but I find it incredibly convoluted to have different attendance boundary rules for the same types of schools located in separate parts of the state. It can't be more uniform than that? Yes and no on Monroe City and Ouachita Parish schools having zones they must follow... There is also the matter of "failing schools".At one point, Wossman and Carroll were both failing, therefore any of those kids could go to Neville, which was not failing. This led to Neville getting pretty much any standout football player in the city they wanted, i.e. Kevonte Turpin, whose brother did not go to Neville, but stayed at his "home zone" school. I'm sure there are many other examples. I'm also not accusing Neville of any wrongdoing. Just pointing out that every kid at Neville does not live in the Neville zone (that zone is another story for another day, going back to the Ruple and Brown days). This is what a lot of public school supporters don't understand about this whole situation. There are very very few public schools in this state comprised of only students who live in that school's zone. They have done a great job of uniting, however, and painting privates as bad guys. It isn't yes and no. OPSB and MCS programs all have attendance zones they are required to follow. I am not saying they are following the zones and I agree with you, most schools have students from out of zone. I agree - most public schools have out of zone kids. Most private schools have out of zone kids, too. I live in North Monroe and I have a neighbor a few houses down with Cedar Creek football signs in his yard. This is what private school supporters don't understand. You can live anywhere and attend a private school. For example, OCS sends buses to West Monroe and Bastrop. In Ouachita Parish, you have to live in the attendance boundary of the school you want to attend. I'm not saying they are following these rules because that'd be foolish on my part; I know better. I know this isn't the case statewide, either, which is weird to me. I don't get how you can have different attendance rules for the same types of schools in different parts of the state. I suppose it is a population issue? Number of schools within a parish? I really don't know.
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Post by iamray on Jul 1, 2019 7:40:45 GMT -6
I'm pretty sure that's not true... Ben Franklin and Mandeville and Fontainebleau and Assumption have great programs Not really. Mandeville is pretty avg, Fontainebleau had a run before their coach left for a ...shocking... private school. I believe they won it in 2012 So yes it has been less than 20 years for FHS and Franklin (last championship was 2003 I believe). indy is factually incorrect in his statement. But that doesn't change the message of the post, which is that of all team sports in the LHSAA, girls volleyball is probably the most slanted towards private school success. Girls/boys soccer might be right there with it. All are have seen private schools dominate to a far far greater degree than in football yet football was the catalyst for the split. Mt. Carmel, St. Joe, Dominican...it is almost exclusively private.
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Post by retired on Jul 1, 2019 7:55:24 GMT -6
Yes and no on Monroe City and Ouachita Parish schools having zones they must follow... There is also the matter of "failing schools".At one point, Wossman and Carroll were both failing, therefore any of those kids could go to Neville, which was not failing. This led to Neville getting pretty much any standout football player in the city they wanted, i.e. Kevonte Turpin, whose brother did not go to Neville, but stayed at his "home zone" school. I'm sure there are many other examples. I'm also not accusing Neville of any wrongdoing. Just pointing out that every kid at Neville does not live in the Neville zone (that zone is another story for another day, going back to the Ruple and Brown days). This is what a lot of public school supporters don't understand about this whole situation. There are very very few public schools in this state comprised of only students who live in that school's zone. They have done a great job of uniting, however, and painting privates as bad guys. It isn't yes and no. OPSB and MCS programs all have attendance zones they are required to follow. I am not saying they are following the zones and I agree with you, most schools have students from out of zone. I agree - most public schools have out of zone kids. Most private schools have out of zone kids, too. I live in North Monroe and I have a neighbor a few houses down with Cedar Creek football signs in his yard. This is what private school supporters don't understand. You can live anywhere and attend a private school. For example, OCS sends buses to West Monroe and Bastrop. In Ouachita Parish, you have to live in the attendance boundary of the school you want to attend. I'm not saying they are following these rules because that'd be foolish on my part; I know better. I know this isn't the case statewide, either, which is weird to me. I don't get how you can have different attendance rules for the same types of schools in different parts of the state. I suppose it is a population issue? Number of schools within a parish? I really don't know. It isn't "attendance rules" it is the LEA enrollment policy. Because there are various Local Education Authorities, there are various enrollment procedures. Plus other factors (failing schools, minority/majority enrollment, specialized curriculum magnet programs) And I have to disagree with you. Private school supporters DO understand.
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Post by indy on Jul 1, 2019 11:35:12 GMT -6
Ray we are getting a lot closer on common ground so I mean this in the best possible way
Public school kids don’t have to live in the zone the LEA’s allow out of zone kids and the lhsaa has to allow what the LEA did and this causes both sides to use the sit out rule
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Post by iamray on Jul 1, 2019 13:58:47 GMT -6
It isn't yes and no. OPSB and MCS programs all have attendance zones they are required to follow. I am not saying they are following the zones and I agree with you, most schools have students from out of zone. I agree - most public schools have out of zone kids. Most private schools have out of zone kids, too. I live in North Monroe and I have a neighbor a few houses down with Cedar Creek football signs in his yard. This is what private school supporters don't understand. You can live anywhere and attend a private school. For example, OCS sends buses to West Monroe and Bastrop. In Ouachita Parish, you have to live in the attendance boundary of the school you want to attend. I'm not saying they are following these rules because that'd be foolish on my part; I know better. I know this isn't the case statewide, either, which is weird to me. I don't get how you can have different attendance rules for the same types of schools in different parts of the state. I suppose it is a population issue? Number of schools within a parish? I really don't know. It isn't "attendance rules" it is the LEA enrollment policy. Because there are various Local Education Authorities, there are various enrollment procedures. Plus other factors (failing schools, minority/majority enrollment, specialized curriculum magnet programs) And I have to disagree with you. Private school supporters DO understand. If private school supporters do understand, then why haven't they said so? As a public school guy, I have no problem acknowledging that most public schools have kids from out of zone. In MCS and OPSB, this is against the rules, but it is happening anyway. I'm not going to be so short-sided that I won't recognize publics break rules. I don't see private school supporters acknowledging anything wrong on their part. I mostly see them pointing their finger at the publics. Yes, public schools can now use the sit-out rule, but when Evangel made their run, that was not the case and I think it led directly to the split. I have yet to see a private school supporter acknowledge this. Am I wrong? Is the split not a result of the success of Evangel and John Curtis?
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Post by iamray on Jul 1, 2019 14:00:35 GMT -6
Ray we are getting a lot closer on common ground so I mean this in the best possible way Public school kids don’t have to live in the zone the LEA’s allow out of zone kids and the lhsaa has to allow what the LEA did and this causes both sides to use the sit out rule This is true, now. When Evangel rose to prominence this was NOT the case. Public school transfers had to live in the zone of the school they were attending. Private school transfers only had to sit a year, did not have to live in the zone, and would be eligible to play ball.
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Post by btown on Jul 1, 2019 15:51:18 GMT -6
LHSAA has a failure to enforce their rules. If rules had be enforced in past maybe we would not be in the situation we are today. Also when the bigger schools got enough votes to force JC and Evangel down in classification that caused frustration in the small schools and cut them deep. So even after they were allowed to play up again the wound never healed for the small school. Does this make the split right, maybe not. All I know is some small schools took some bad beating from those schools, in the playoffs,and never forgot it.
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Post by indy on Jul 1, 2019 16:56:31 GMT -6
Couple of things
First and foremost it wasn’t the big schools that voted Evangel and Curtis down
This was the lhsaa commissioner at the time who enacted a rule that you couldn’t play up anymore
Second simple math Evangel and Curtis we’re down in the smaller leagues and this was terrible but they could only play 4 schools per year at the most So again this was horrible but it was an attempt to slow those two schools down but they didn’t beat every single team every single week the scope of the number of teams affected is less than what the split does
Third the lhsaa can only enforce what’s turned in so when they schools each have dirt on each other so they can’t turn each other in who’s fault is that?
Lastly sorry guys pre split era wasn’t live in zone era
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2019 16:59:15 GMT -6
Everybody on this board knows that it is monitored by Coaches, Administrators, and the Media (and the LHSAA). I've seen it sourced in articles, and seen it listed as a source on the web.
So without calling each other names, or questioning each others manhood/s I would like to hear from those genuinely interested in the subject.
We have to all be in agreement that the current system is broken, our playoffs and championships are a disaster. We are heading for a completely new private association. That is not going to benefit either side in the debate (our state is just not big enough).
There are always going to private and public schools that cheat (break/bend the rules) to improve their teams, but I have a feeling that most Coaches and Administrators don't want to live with the guilt and shame of being a cheater. So what do the rules need to be, to make it fair? What would make public schools feel like the deck was not stacked against them (Attendance zones, Step up in Classification/s?) It is a concern and I get it.
Unless I have missed it (and I may have) the public school members have never proposed a set of rules that if followed would allow a private school member to compete as a non select member of the association?
I do think the privates are going to form a new association to include all interested privates and the charters (profitable gates, championships, maybe good for them, maybe not), that will only further divide what I thought was the best thing about Louisiana, great high school sports.
What does it take to end the split? The split was meant crush Curtis and Evangel. It is stupid. It doesnt work and in nature it fails every time. All you need to ask yourself is this, "Did it work?" Nope. It did not. Now we have even more dominant privates in Rummel, LCA, Southern Lab, University for a few years, Catholic BR, and the biggest of them all, Karr. Get rid of one and two more pop up. In their blind stupidity and hate towards these two schools they have made privates even more emboldened to success. Human nature to tell another to suck it when they want you gone. Survivial instinct. I want the split gone. So does 90% of everyone else.
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Post by indy on Jul 1, 2019 17:01:25 GMT -6
Ray if you seem to want a private school to admit some fault. Is this the case? What fault? Private schools have to pay so to do this you have to maximize your customer base therefore you have to offer your service to our of zone kids. If the only out of zone kids present played sports then you’re right that’s an issue. And as far as the other side look at it like this Neville has been more successful than most, right? So how would you and the other Neville alumni feel if the Tigers were voted out?
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Post by retired on Jul 1, 2019 17:14:29 GMT -6
Couple of things First and foremost it wasn’t the big schools that voted Evangel and Curtis down This was the lhsaa commissioner at the time who enacted a rule that you couldn’t play up anymore Second simple math Evangel and Curtis we’re down in the smaller leagues and this was terrible but they could only play 4 schools per year at the most So again this was horrible but it was an attempt to slow those two schools down but they didn’t beat every single team every single week the scope of the number of teams affected is less than what the split does Third the lhsaa can only enforce what’s turned in so when they schools each have dirt on each other so they can’t turn each other in who’s fault is that? Lastly sorry guys pre split era wasn’t live in zone era I don't think you are correct on your first point. I believe it was a vote in October of 2004. Not a unilateral decision made by one person. For point 2, obviously a split playoff format "affects" more teams in number than just ECA and JC, but I would disagree that the split playoff format has a deeper impact on teams than forcing them to play down in class did. Regarding recruiting violations, it just is never simple.
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Post by indy on Jul 1, 2019 17:19:17 GMT -6
Couple of things First and foremost it wasn’t the big schools that voted Evangel and Curtis down This was the lhsaa commissioner at the time who enacted a rule that you couldn’t play up anymore Second simple math Evangel and Curtis we’re down in the smaller leagues and this was terrible but they could only play 4 schools per year at the most So again this was horrible but it was an attempt to slow those two schools down but they didn’t beat every single team every single week the scope of the number of teams affected is less than what the split does Third the lhsaa can only enforce what’s turned in so when they schools each have dirt on each other so they can’t turn each other in who’s fault is that? Lastly sorry guys pre split era wasn’t live in zone era I don't think you are correct on your first point. I believe it was a vote in October of 2004. Not a unilateral decision made by one person. For point 2, obviously a split playoff format "affects" more teams in number than just ECA and JC, but I would disagree that the split playoff format has a deeper impact on teams than forcing them to play down in class did. Regarding recruiting violations, it just is never simple. Kenny Henderson had zero backbone and no balls. He let it happen.
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Post by retired on Jul 1, 2019 17:28:48 GMT -6
I don't think you are correct on your first point. I believe it was a vote in October of 2004. Not a unilateral decision made by one person. For point 2, obviously a split playoff format "affects" more teams in number than just ECA and JC, but I would disagree that the split playoff format has a deeper impact on teams than forcing them to play down in class did. Regarding recruiting violations, it just is never simple. Kenny Henderson had zero backbone and no balls. He let it happen. Kenny Henderson did not take the office of Executive Director until 2006. The vote to force schools to play in class was passed in Oct. 2004 I believe.
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Post by indy on Jul 1, 2019 17:34:58 GMT -6
Kenny Henderson had zero backbone and no balls. He let it happen. Kenny Henderson did not take the office of Executive Director until 2006. The vote to force schools to play in class was passed in Oct. 2004 I believe. Perhaps you are correct. Maybe I need to retire also! Lol
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Post by iamray on Jul 1, 2019 19:23:33 GMT -6
Ray if you seem to want a private school to admit some fault. Is this the case? What fault? Private schools have to pay so to do this you have to maximize your customer base therefore you have to offer your service to our of zone kids. If the only out of zone kids present played sports then you’re right that’s an issue. And as far as the other side look at it like this Neville has been more successful than most, right? So how would you and the other Neville alumni feel if the Tigers were voted out? I just want someone from the private side to at least acknowledge that two private schools started this. Public schools didn't just band together for no reason to split public and private schools. They had two reasons - Evangel and John Curtis. Both private programs who have enjoyed far more football success than any other programs (public and private) in the state - except for Haynesville. I've already said my piece on tuition. Both Evangel and JC (as well as most private programs) offer financial aid, scholarships, work study..etc. These programs have ways to help students cover tuition. You think Derrius Guice could afford the tuition at Catholic? You think Willie Allen could've afforded the tuition at JC? Absolutely not. And this is part and parcel to the issue. Do you really feel as if the private schools have absolutely zero culpability in this?
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Post by indy on Jul 1, 2019 19:43:37 GMT -6
Ray if you seem to want a private school to admit some fault. Is this the case? What fault? Private schools have to pay so to do this you have to maximize your customer base therefore you have to offer your service to our of zone kids. If the only out of zone kids present played sports then you’re right that’s an issue. And as far as the other side look at it like this Neville has been more successful than most, right? So how would you and the other Neville alumni feel if the Tigers were voted out? I just want someone from the private side to at least acknowledge that two private schools started this. Public schools didn't just band together for no reason to split public and private schools. They had two reasons - Evangel and John Curtis. Both private programs who have enjoyed far more football success than any other programs (public and private) in the state - except for Haynesville. I've already said my piece on tuition. Both Evangel and JC (as well as most private programs) offer financial aid, scholarships, work study..etc. These programs have ways to help students cover tuition. You think Derrius Guice could afford the tuition at Catholic? You think Willie Allen could've afforded the tuition at JC? Absolutely not. And this is part and parcel to the issue. Do you really feel as if the private schools have absolutely zero culpability in this? I agree 100% with you on JC and E. I think they are the epicenter and the beginning of the problem. But I lay the blame on the total disfunction of the LHSAA on the self serving principals. JC and E are family owned businesses and their well being is determined by their success. The lhsaa failed to understand the differences in a high school that benefits students and one that benefits the owner.
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Post by retired on Jul 1, 2019 21:27:00 GMT -6
I just want someone from the private side to at least acknowledge that two private schools started this. Public schools didn't just band together for no reason to split public and private schools. They had two reasons - Evangel and John Curtis. Both private programs who have enjoyed far more football success than any other programs (public and private) in the state - except for Haynesville. I've already said my piece on tuition. Both Evangel and JC (as well as most private programs) offer financial aid, scholarships, work study..etc. These programs have ways to help students cover tuition. You think Derrius Guice could afford the tuition at Catholic? You think Willie Allen could've afforded the tuition at JC? Absolutely not. And this is part and parcel to the issue. Do you really feel as if the private schools have absolutely zero culpability in this? I agree 100% with you on JC and E. I think they are the epicenter and the beginning of the problem. But I lay the blame on the total disfunction of the LHSAA on the self serving principals. JC and E are family owned businesses and their well being is determined by their success. The lhsaa failed to understand the differences in a high school that benefits students and one that benefits the owner. Indy, you are geographical somewhat close to LCA. Could you see where the potential is there for them to simply follow suit? Already showed they don't generally care about the rules with the illegal coaching situation. Look at Riverside, particularly basketball now that football seems to have succumb a bit to financial issues.
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Post by pinion on Jul 2, 2019 0:15:44 GMT -6
I just want someone from the private side to at least acknowledge that two private schools started this. Public schools didn't just band together for no reason to split public and private schools. They had two reasons - Evangel and John Curtis. Both private programs who have enjoyed far more football success than any other programs (public and private) in the state - except for Haynesville. I've already said my piece on tuition. Both Evangel and JC (as well as most private programs) offer financial aid, scholarships, work study..etc. These programs have ways to help students cover tuition. You think Derrius Guice could afford the tuition at Catholic? You think Willie Allen could've afforded the tuition at JC? Absolutely not. And this is part and parcel to the issue. Do you really feel as if the private schools have absolutely zero culpability in this? 2 private schools did not start this. People were fine with ECA as long as they were dropping games here and there in 1A. When they starting winning is when all the whining started. Prior to that, there wasn't much said about Curtis sitting in 4A. I mean, a lot of 4A schools didnt like it, but they rolled with it. Having 4 and 5A dominated by private schools was just too much. In regards to tuition. What difference does it really make who pays the bill or if it's even paid at all? Public schools aren't self funded, every kid there is there on someone else's dime. You don't seem to take issue with that. And while it's maybe not exactly the same thing, the bottom line is that sometimes a private school kids parents aren't paying the tuition. At a public school, the whole parish is paying for the kid to be there. Kids or not, everybody is paying for it. When we lived in Caddo, we paid for our son to attend ECA and we paid taxes and paid for everybody else's kids as well. Regardless of how crappy the schools were (are). If the money thing is such an issue, that could have been worked around. But that's not what the LHSAA wanted to do. You're wanting to point a lot of accusing fingers at ECA and Curtis, but you have to keep in mind that they were following all the rules that the LHSAA put in place. They weren't violating anything. And those rules could have changed, except that's not what the NormanBookers of the world wanted. They wanted to lash out at private schools, across the board. They weren't interested in fixing anything, they were interested in dealing as much of a blow to private schools as they possibly could because they simply hate private schools. Hating on private schools isn't uncommon and it's not something that's special to Louisiana. Here in Texas, the haters always talk about how private schools are 2nd class and cheat by recruiting. But if you point out that a school like Allen may recruit, their answers is "well they may have recruit a couple of players, but private schools recruit most of their players". and I'm like "you either recruit or you don't". And really, it's much of the same in Louisiana. "private schools recruit and a few public schools here and there also recruit. But still, private schools recruit. and they cheat. and they stink and their breathing up all our public school air". I mean, it's just bloody nonsense. People were okay with catholic schools because of the politics of Louisiana and Catholicism. People were not okay with 2 non-catholic schools ruling the top 2 classes. When those 2 were forced to play down, the smaller schools were not okay with the beat downs they didn't really ask for. Fixing the problem should have been the priority of everyone. Instead, ignoring the problem and creating more problems was what we got. A simple solution would be for the LHSAA to toss out every single private school and declare that they are a public school organization. then the catholic schools can form their own league and declare that they are for catholic schools only. then ECA and Curtis will end their football programs within a few years and the catholic league could dissolve, the lhsaa could open up to everyone again, and everybody would be happy because ECA and Curtis would be out. gone. goodbye. Except for the problem of the same handful of schools, minus ECA and Curtis, would still be winning and there wouldn't be anybody to blame without somehow managing to chew on their own leg.
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Post by indy on Jul 2, 2019 5:05:40 GMT -6
I agree 100% with you on JC and E. I think they are the epicenter and the beginning of the problem. But I lay the blame on the total disfunction of the LHSAA on the self serving principals. JC and E are family owned businesses and their well being is determined by their success. The lhsaa failed to understand the differences in a high school that benefits students and one that benefits the owner. Indy, you are geographical somewhat close to LCA. Could you see where the potential is there for them to simply follow suit? Already showed they don't generally care about the rules with the illegal coaching situation. Look at Riverside, particularly basketball now that football seems to have succumb a bit to financial issues. Yes LCA is right down the road to the east. Pastor Jay got his “how to” list from Pastor Duron, so yes they are copying his MO. But in our parish students are leaving Crowley High by the droves and going to Iota and Midland. Church Point has more out of parish students than ND and LCA combined. Many can draw from 1,100 students and remain 2A. Kinder can get students from Elton and Hathaway in a neighboring parish because they don’t have baseball. And we split because of zones? The principal run LHSAA is a bunch of self serving s.
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Post by chalmetteowl on Jul 2, 2019 5:53:28 GMT -6
Everybody on this board knows that it is monitored by Coaches, Administrators, and the Media (and the LHSAA). I've seen it sourced in articles, and seen it listed as a source on the web.
So without calling each other names, or questioning each others manhood/s I would like to hear from those genuinely interested in the subject.
We have to all be in agreement that the current system is broken, our playoffs and championships are a disaster. We are heading for a completely new private association. That is not going to benefit either side in the debate (our state is just not big enough).
There are always going to private and public schools that cheat (break/bend the rules) to improve their teams, but I have a feeling that most Coaches and Administrators don't want to live with the guilt and shame of being a cheater. So what do the rules need to be, to make it fair? What would make public schools feel like the deck was not stacked against them (Attendance zones, Step up in Classification/s?) It is a concern and I get it.
Unless I have missed it (and I may have) the public school members have never proposed a set of rules that if followed would allow a private school member to compete as a non select member of the association?
I do think the privates are going to form a new association to include all interested privates and the charters (profitable gates, championships, maybe good for them, maybe not), that will only further divide what I thought was the best thing about Louisiana, great high school sports.
What does it take to end the split? The split was meant crush Curtis and Evangel. It is stupid. It doesnt work and in nature it fails every time. All you need to ask yourself is this, "Did it work?" Nope. It did not. Now we have even more dominant privates in Rummel, LCA, Southern Lab, University for a few years, Catholic BR, and the biggest of them all, Karr. Get rid of one and two more pop up. In their blind stupidity and hate towards these two schools they have made privates even more emboldened to success. Human nature to tell another to suck it when they want you gone. Survivial instinct. I want the split gone. So does 90% of everyone else. Karr is a charter, not private
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Post by indy on Jul 2, 2019 6:26:11 GMT -6
And Karr was once magnet
Again thanks for proving the point that many ways exist to cheat the system and not be labeled “select”
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Post by retired on Jul 2, 2019 8:56:41 GMT -6
Indy, you are geographical somewhat close to LCA. Could you see where the potential is there for them to simply follow suit? Already showed they don't generally care about the rules with the illegal coaching situation. Look at Riverside, particularly basketball now that football seems to have succumb a bit to financial issues. Yes LCA is right down the road to the east. Pastor Jay got his “how to” list from Pastor Duron, so yes they are copying his MO. But in our parish students are leaving Crowley High by the droves and going to Iota and Midland. Church Point has more out of parish students than ND and LCA combined. Many can draw from 1,100 students and remain 2A. Kinder can get students from Elton and Hathaway in a neighboring parish because they don’t have baseball. And we split because of zones? The principal run LHSAA is a bunch of self serving s. Not to be snide, but given your recent inaccuracies regarding the LHSAA, the vote to force in-class play, and the LHSAA staffing at the time, can you substantiate your claims regarding church point's enrollment? Or define "droves" as a quantity? I do find it kind of confusing that you openly state that LCA is trying to do exactly what ECA did and then complain that principals are being self serving in their actions. Seems to me that is actually one of the better reasons for maintaining a split. Not that I am a fan of the current situation, but when you can say: 1) ECA has over 100 Div 1 scholarship players , 12 graduates who got a chance in the NFL, 14 state championships in just 30 years of existence.... 2) JC has had over 40 Div 1 Scholarship players in the last 10-12 years, over a 90% win rate, etc. 3) Both schools were essentially playing "within the rules" during their tenure 4) LCA in Lafayette is now attempting to copy that same model you have to think "what can we do"?
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Post by indy on Jul 2, 2019 9:11:28 GMT -6
Yes LCA is right down the road to the east. Pastor Jay got his “how to” list from Pastor Duron, so yes they are copying his MO. But in our parish students are leaving Crowley High by the droves and going to Iota and Midland. Church Point has more out of parish students than ND and LCA combined. Many can draw from 1,100 students and remain 2A. Kinder can get students from Elton and Hathaway in a neighboring parish because they don’t have baseball. And we split because of zones? The principal run LHSAA is a bunch of self serving s. Not to be snide, but given your recent inaccuracies regarding the LHSAA, the vote to force in-class play, and the LHSAA staffing at the time, can you substantiate your claims regarding church point's enrollment? Or define "droves" as a quantity? I do find it kind of confusing that you openly state that LCA is trying to do exactly what ECA did and then complain that principals are being self serving in their actions. Seems to me that is actually one of the better reasons for maintaining a split. Not that I am a fan of the current situation, but when you can say: 1) ECA has over 100 Div 1 scholarship players , 12 graduates who got a chance in the NFL, 14 state championships in just 30 years of existence.... 2) JC has had over 40 Div 1 Scholarship players in the last 10-12 years, over a 90% win rate, etc. 3) Both schools were essentially playing "within the rules" during their tenure 4) LCA in Lafayette is now attempting to copy that same model you have to think "what can we do"? Haynesville, Neville, and Karr have similar histories to LCA, E, and JC. There are folks on here from CP and Crowley and they never questioned it. It’s just a known thing around here. What I’m getting at is that we have no zones or boundaries any more. The self serving principals are responsible for all this, just a fact.
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Post by retired on Jul 2, 2019 9:37:25 GMT -6
Not to be snide, but given your recent inaccuracies regarding the LHSAA, the vote to force in-class play, and the LHSAA staffing at the time, can you substantiate your claims regarding church point's enrollment? Or define "droves" as a quantity? I do find it kind of confusing that you openly state that LCA is trying to do exactly what ECA did and then complain that principals are being self serving in their actions. Seems to me that is actually one of the better reasons for maintaining a split. Not that I am a fan of the current situation, but when you can say: 1) ECA has over 100 Div 1 scholarship players , 12 graduates who got a chance in the NFL, 14 state championships in just 30 years of existence.... 2) JC has had over 40 Div 1 Scholarship players in the last 10-12 years, over a 90% win rate, etc. 3) Both schools were essentially playing "within the rules" during their tenure 4) LCA in Lafayette is now attempting to copy that same model you have to think "what can we do"? Haynesville, Neville, and Karr have similar histories to LCA, E, and JC. There are folks on here from CP and Crowley and they never questioned it. It’s just a known thing around here. What I’m getting at is that we have no zones or boundaries any more. The self serving principals are responsible for all this, just a fact. Haynesville does not have 100 Div 1 scholarship players in the last 30 years. Neville and Karr probably don't either, BUT also keep in mind they are not a school with an enrollment of 250-300 students. I do understand your point though. Public school enrollment procedures vary, and are no longer universally the "neighborhood school" attendance zone model that many people think. And therefore, the new dynamics need to be the basis on which the situation is examined.
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