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Post by indy on Oct 2, 2019 12:17:13 GMT -6
Seems like we have found some common ground.
Your obvious advantages aren't so obvious like i recently pointed out if we recruit or had the magic tuition fund why don't we have the sons of the nfl players?
Here is the thing it wasn't a vote Curtis and Evangel as well as the other schools were told they could no longer choose to play up in class. I'm not sure how you want ND or any other private school for that matter to do something about that?
Name one find me the name of one private school who voted for the first split.
Now back to something that is easier for us to agree on. It's more of a metro rural issue. The small town schools such as Winnfield and Notre Dame have more in common than with either Evangel or John Curtis. The real advantage lies when you can pull the best players from the large areas. Had Evangel not been in Shreveport or John Curtis not been in New Orleans they would not have access to all the players they did and couldn't have gotten to the point they did. Now as far as why those were sent down by mandate not vote. This was a measure to prevent a split it was thought at the time this would weaken those two schools which it did hurt Evangel but did not harm John Curtis. As recent history has shown the better idea would have been to force them all the way up.
Now for these rules that people like about when public schools can accept out of zone kids this has been the case with the catholic schools since day one. Most of which predate public schools. A public school is given a zone which gives them guaranteed student population. The catholic school doesn't have this luxury. In order to attempt to fill a class we need a wider net because we can't catch every kid in the city the kid lives in. IamRay makes a great point about neighborhood schools and he is correct as to what it's supposed to be about. This is why feel that your larger 2a schools and 3a schools have your best fan bases because they feel more connected to the school. 95% of catholic school kids have been there since pre k, you'll get close to 2.5% that join in third or fourth grade close to 2.5% that join in 5th or 6th. We had Tyler Shelvin for one year but that's the 1 in 25 years and the kid came to us. That team didn't play for the championship like the year before or the year afterward. You can get the pre k yearbooks and see the lineup of the kids who were on the field as junior and seniors.
To be a member of the lhsaa each school should have a policy making board above it's onsite administration.
As a group we won't get anywhere when both sides automatically assume the worst from each other. My school didn't approve of Evangel and Curtis going down and I don't know of a diocesan catholic school who did.
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Post by thedomeranger on Oct 2, 2019 20:32:38 GMT -6
He also came to LCA. This is something I try to tell folks a well, probably in basketball more than football TBH, many of these higher end kids (and their parents) approach schools to “shop” which school they want to attend. Do the schools roll out the red carpet? I’m sure they do. Do parents or the kids make their decision based on coaches, facilities, other student athletes, cost of tuition, or some sort of under the table inducement? You would have to ask them. I suspect that the opportunity to play and to win are probably more frequent drivers than any untoward inducements. I may be naive but I firmly believe most schools do not do those things just as I also think the letter of the law in “recruiting” is probably frequently broken. If I understand the regs, even a student athlete asking his friend to come and play at his school could be considered recruiting.
High School Athletics is not what it once was in Louisiana. It seems much less about representing a neighborhood, area, or small town and more about getting the best athletes you can entice so you can simply win. And yes, I do realize winning has always been the goal but now it seems to be the point whereas sports were originally introduced in schools to be a way to build character and teach perseverance and fair play (and that is still often done but sometimes it seems more incidental than purposeful).
i still love high school sports, though.
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Post by chalmetteowl on Oct 2, 2019 21:07:40 GMT -6
He also came to LCA. This is something I try to tell folks a well, probably in basketball more than football TBH, many of these higher end kids (and their parents) approach schools to “shop” which school they want to attend. Do the schools roll out the red carpet? I’m sure they do. Do parents or the kids make their decision based on coaches, facilities, other student athletes, cost of tuition, or some sort of under the table inducement? You would have to ask them. I suspect that the opportunity to play and to win are probably more frequent drivers than any untoward inducements. I may be naive but I firmly believe most schools do not do those things just as I also think the letter of the law in “recruiting” is probably frequently broken. If I understand the regs, even a student athlete asking his friend to come and play at his school could be considered recruiting. High School Athletics is not what it once was in Louisiana. It seems much less about representing a neighborhood, area, or small town and more about getting the best athletes you can entice so you can simply win. And yes, I do realize winning has always been the goal but now it seems to be the point whereas sports were originally introduced in schools to be a way to build character and teach perseverance and fair play (and that is still often done but sometimes it seems more incidental than purposeful). i still love high school sports, though. so question... when did it stop being about representing where you're from? ?
do you have to be from XXXXXX all your life to be a true XXXXXXX XXXXX?
you can entice a few kids all you want, but most of your kids are still homegrown. if Karr wins Algiers still takes pride for example.
to take aim at the system you have to take aim at the rewards for being successful. In NOLA the Catholic schools are pretty much a status symbol for the middle class. the parents love flaunting and showing off the school colors almost more than the kids.
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Post by coach4christ on Oct 3, 2019 7:27:26 GMT -6
One overlooked issue is the populations of the schools. Most select schools do not have a population of sped students counted on their enrollment like non select schools do. Also the population of a select school is skewed in the favor of an athlete. Lets take 1A-2A size schools. There are a large majority of select schools where the majority of the population are athletes. Look at how many football players they dress. Its not out of the realm of possibility that half their student population dresses for football. This doesn't count the athletes who specialize in another sport. Non selects on the other hand have populations that tend to skew in the other direction. Not throwing shade at the selects, just stating my observation. The reality is, and it's been stated numerous times, is that a few schools have been driven to win at all cost and it shed a bad light on other schools. Something does need to be done to level the playing field, whether its continuing with the split or letting the selects play in a higher division where population makeup isn't a big issue. Don't know, just the ramblings of a fan.... By the way, I agree with the OP's statement about the catholic schools. They tend to be more education driven from what I've seen..
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Post by indy on Oct 3, 2019 9:26:58 GMT -6
How about a small graduated multiplier to account for that?
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Post by wshs on Oct 3, 2019 10:59:41 GMT -6
Seems like we have found some common ground. Your obvious advantages aren't so obvious like i recently pointed out if we recruit or had the magic tuition fund why don't we have the sons of the nfl players? Here is the thing it wasn't a vote Curtis and Evangel as well as the other schools were told they could no longer choose to play up in class. I'm not sure how you want ND or any other private school for that matter to do something about that? Name one find me the name of one private school who voted for the first split. Now back to something that is easier for us to agree on. It's more of a metro rural issue. The small town schools such as Winnfield and Notre Dame have more in common than with either Evangel or John Curtis. The real advantage lies when you can pull the best players from the large areas. Had Evangel not been in Shreveport or John Curtis not been in New Orleans they would not have access to all the players they did and couldn't have gotten to the point they did. Now as far as why those were sent down by mandate not vote. This was a measure to prevent a split it was thought at the time this would weaken those two schools which it did hurt Evangel but did not harm John Curtis. As recent history has shown the better idea would have been to force them all the way up. Now for these rules that people like about when public schools can accept out of zone kids this has been the case with the catholic schools since day one. Most of which predate public schools. A public school is given a zone which gives them guaranteed student population. The catholic school doesn't have this luxury. In order to attempt to fill a class we need a wider net because we can't catch every kid in the city the kid lives in. IamRay makes a great point about neighborhood schools and he is correct as to what it's supposed to be about. This is why feel that your larger 2a schools and 3a schools have your best fan bases because they feel more connected to the school. 95% of catholic school kids have been there since pre k, you'll get close to 2.5% that join in third or fourth grade close to 2.5% that join in 5th or 6th. We had Tyler Shelvin for one year but that's the 1 in 25 years and the kid came to us. That team didn't play for the championship like the year before or the year afterward. You can get the pre k yearbooks and see the lineup of the kids who were on the field as junior and seniors. To be a member of the lhsaa each school should have a policy making board above it's onsite administration. As a group we won't get anywhere when both sides automatically assume the worst from each other. My school didn't approve of Evangel and Curtis going down and I don't know of a diocesan catholic school who did. No doubt, we agree on a couple of things. I don't like the split. I miss watching some really good games private vs public in the playoffs. That being said, I will take the current format over what we had pre 2013 any day. That doesn't mean I don't think there isn't a better way than the current split. As for why ND didn't end up with those two players, I cant answer that. I don't even know who they are or where they went. But I do know there are a lot of schools in your area meaning those kids had numerous choices on where to attend.
I don't have a list of private schools that voted for the split but there were some. The DIV4 schools were just as glad not to play Haynesville/ Oak Grove/ Kentwood as the 2a schools were not to play JC.
As for not allowing JC and E not to play up in class, if that wasn't voted on great, but it had to have support for it to go in effect. St. Thomas Moore and Rummel were just as happy they were pushed down as West Monroe and Neville.
As for the rural/ metro issue. You are correct, this plan makes more sense than the current split. I've read where even Winnfield's principal you hate so much was open to the plan. The issue was how you determine a rural/metro school which I'm not sure I agree with.
My definition of rural and your definition or rural are obviously different. I'm not saying ND isn't rural, but definitely not to the degree a place like Winnfield is rural. There are as many people in the town of Crowley as there are in Winn Parish. To put that in perspective, there are as many students within 5 square miles of ND than there are within 1000 square miles of Winnfield. Basically we have around 600 kids in the parish. If you drive 25 miles or further in any direction, still only 600 kids. 250 of those attend the outlier schools. Take it a step further-- you get out around the parish line and you have kids from Winn Parish hopping over going to school in Lakeview, Lasalle, Georgetown, Montgomery, St Marys, Natchitoches Central etc.. You take a 25 mile trip from Crowley and you got what? 250,000 kids? I know there are a ton of schools in south Louisiana that these kids go too but if ND just gets a few good players from outside Crowley it has to help. I'm not saying they shouldn't be able to, just saying the opportunity to build a better team with better players is far and away easier based off the numbers.
On top of the numbers issue, you have to take into account how many of the kids are actually even interested in playing sports. Of the 350 kids at Winnfield, over half of them have no desire to be involved in anything and most of those kids parents could care less. I'm sure ND and other private schools have a certain expectation for the kids that attend to be involved. I'm sure those kids parents want their kids involved. I know I would. If ND had a kid attend that just wont get right you can and will cut ties with him. Nothing wrong with that. Wished public schools could expel a kid that easy but they cant and if/ when they eventually are able too, they have to carry that kids expulsion with them when the school is graded by the state.
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Post by indy on Oct 3, 2019 11:37:22 GMT -6
I will take the current format over what we had pre 2013 any day - Was terrible to push Evangel and Curtis down is terrible to have the byes and what not now basically a push.
As for why ND didn't end up with those two players, I cant answer that. I don't even know who they are or where they went. But I do know there are a lot of schools in your area meaning those kids had numerous choices on where to attend. We don't recruit or cheat that's why we didn't end up with them. They both went to the public schools they were zoned for.
I don't have a list of private schools that voted for the split but there were some. The DIV4 schools were just as glad not to play Haynesville/ Oak Grove/ Kentwood as the 2a schools were not to play JC. I'm sure this is the case some good teams exist on both sides and some people who seek to dodge exist on both sides. As far as I know there did not exist a catholic school to vote for the split the first time. St. Mary eventually did and they are the only one I am aware of.
As for not allowing JC and E not to play up in class, if that wasn't voted on great, but it had to have support for it to go in effect. St. Thomas Moore and Rummel were just as happy they were pushed down as West Monroe and Neville. It didn't have the support to go into effect it was a decision made by one man and no one could challenge it. Research this if you disagree but it wasn't like it is now that's why the title of the person in charge has changed.
As for the rural/ metro issue. You are correct, this plan makes more sense than the current split. I've read where even Winnfield's principal you hate so much was open to the plan. The issue was how you determine a rural/metro school which I'm not sure I agree with.
My definition of rural and your definition or rural are obviously different. I'm not saying ND isn't rural, but definitely not to the degree a place like Winnfield is rural. There are as many people in the town of Crowley as there are in Winn Parish. To put that in perspective, there are as many students within 5 square miles of ND than there are within 1000 square miles of Winnfield. Basically we have around 600 kids in the parish. If you drive 25 miles or further in any direction, still only 600 kids. 250 of those attend the outlier schools. Take it a step further-- you get out around the parish line and you have kids from Winn Parish hopping over going to school in Lakeview, Lasalle, Georgetown, Montgomery, St Marys, Natchitoches Central etc.. You take a 25 mile trip from Crowley and you got what? 250,000 kids? I know there are a ton of schools in south Louisiana that these kids go too but if ND just gets a few good players from outside Crowley it has to help. I'm not saying they shouldn't be able to, just saying the opportunity to build a better team with better players is far and away easier based off the numbers.
What I see is three situations. Within the metro area, along a major highway or interstate and truly rural like what Winnfield is. There does not exist 250k within 25 miles of crowley but i get your point. This same thing has allowed jennings kids to play for welsh and welsh kids to play for jennings as well as rayne to crowley and vise versa. More kids and more schools do level off some of the numerical advantage you speak of.
On top of the numbers issue, you have to take into account how many of the kids are actually even interested in playing sports. Of the 350 kids at Winnfield, over half of them have no desire to be involved in anything and most of those kids parents could care less. I'm sure ND and other private schools have a certain expectation for the kids that attend to be involved. I'm sure those kids parents want their kids involved. I know I would. If ND had a kid attend that just wont get right you can and will cut ties with him. Nothing wrong with that. Wished public schools could expel a kid that easy but they cant and if/ when they eventually are able too, they have to carry that kids expulsion with them when the school is graded by the state.
I completely agree that kids sit on the roster of a public school who will not play a sport or contribute to the school in any way as well as the fact that more private school kids are motivated to play sports. But this is also true with some of the public schools too. This will also very by sport and by geographic region.
In a system based on classification of numbers small multipliers that are multi teared should exist. Winnfield would not be subject to one but Notre Dame would be. If interested i'll post a breakdown of the best idea i've heard. It's from one of the nd assistant coaches.
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Post by thedomeranger on Oct 3, 2019 13:58:34 GMT -6
He also came to LCA. This is something I try to tell folks a well, probably in basketball more than football TBH, many of these higher end kids (and their parents) approach schools to “shop” which school they want to attend. Do the schools roll out the red carpet? I’m sure they do. Do parents or the kids make their decision based on coaches, facilities, other student athletes, cost of tuition, or some sort of under the table inducement? You would have to ask them. I suspect that the opportunity to play and to win are probably more frequent drivers than any untoward inducements. I may be naive but I firmly believe most schools do not do those things just as I also think the letter of the law in “recruiting” is probably frequently broken. If I understand the regs, even a student athlete asking his friend to come and play at his school could be considered recruiting. High School Athletics is not what it once was in Louisiana. It seems much less about representing a neighborhood, area, or small town and more about getting the best athletes you can entice so you can simply win. And yes, I do realize winning has always been the goal but now it seems to be the point whereas sports were originally introduced in schools to be a way to build character and teach perseverance and fair play (and that is still often done but sometimes it seems more incidental than purposeful). i still love high school sports, though. so question... when did it stop being about representing where you're from? ?
do you have to be from XXXXXX all your life to be a true XXXXXXX XXXXX?
you can entice a few kids all you want, but most of your kids are still homegrown. if Karr wins Algiers still takes pride for example.
to take aim at the system you have to take aim at the rewards for being successful. In NOLA the Catholic schools are pretty much a status symbol for the middle class. the parents love flaunting and showing off the school colors almost more than the kids.
I think this is really a societal shift at least in part driven by both the increased media influence on general culture and the much more mobile population we have now. And you are correct that the bulk of the kids do feel a sense of loyalty to their school. My son certainly did and still travels from LSU to see LCA games when he can. But he was not a high end athlete by any measure. Just loved being part of a team and loves sports. It's the general outlook of many administrators, coaches and athletic directors that seem to have shifted a bit. Though even there I have had the privilege to have my son play for a couple of guys who were as focussed on the men that were being produced as the athletes being produced. Maybe I've just turned into an old man lament the "good old days"
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Post by wshs on Oct 3, 2019 14:06:22 GMT -6
I will take the current format over what we had pre 2013 any day - Was terrible to push Evangel and Curtis down is terrible to have the byes and what not now basically a push.As for why ND didn't end up with those two players, I cant answer that. I don't even know who they are or where they went. But I do know there are a lot of schools in your area meaning those kids had numerous choices on where to attend. We don't recruit or cheat that's why we didn't end up with them. They both went to the public schools they were zoned for.I don't have a list of private schools that voted for the split but there were some. The DIV4 schools were just as glad not to play Haynesville/ Oak Grove/ Kentwood as the 2a schools were not to play JC. I'm sure this is the case some good teams exist on both sides and some people who seek to dodge exist on both sides. As far as I know there did not exist a catholic school to vote for the split the first time. St. Mary eventually did and they are the only one I am aware of.
As for not allowing JC and E not to play up in class, if that wasn't voted on great, but it had to have support for it to go in effect. St. Thomas Moore and Rummel were just as happy they were pushed down as West Monroe and Neville. It didn't have the support to go into effect it was a decision made by one man and no one could challenge it. Research this if you disagree but it wasn't like it is now that's why the title of the person in charge has changed.As for the rural/ metro issue. You are correct, this plan makes more sense than the current split. I've read where even Winnfield's principal you hate so much was open to the plan. The issue was how you determine a rural/metro school which I'm not sure I agree with. My definition of rural and your definition or rural are obviously different. I'm not saying ND isn't rural, but definitely not to the degree a place like Winnfield is rural. There are as many people in the town of Crowley as there are in Winn Parish. To put that in perspective, there are as many students within 5 square miles of ND than there are within 1000 square miles of Winnfield. Basically we have around 600 kids in the parish. If you drive 25 miles or further in any direction, still only 600 kids. 250 of those attend the outlier schools. Take it a step further-- you get out around the parish line and you have kids from Winn Parish hopping over going to school in Lakeview, Lasalle, Georgetown, Montgomery, St Marys, Natchitoches Central etc.. You take a 25 mile trip from Crowley and you got what? 250,000 kids? I know there are a ton of schools in south Louisiana that these kids go too but if ND just gets a few good players from outside Crowley it has to help. I'm not saying they shouldn't be able to, just saying the opportunity to build a better team with better players is far and away easier based off the numbers. What I see is three situations. Within the metro area, along a major highway or interstate and truly rural like what Winnfield is. There does not exist 250k within 25 miles of crowley but i get your point. This same thing has allowed jennings kids to play for welsh and welsh kids to play for jennings as well as rayne to crowley and vise versa. More kids and more schools do level off some of the numerical advantage you speak of.
On top of the numbers issue, you have to take into account how many of the kids are actually even interested in playing sports. Of the 350 kids at Winnfield, over half of them have no desire to be involved in anything and most of those kids parents could care less. I'm sure ND and other private schools have a certain expectation for the kids that attend to be involved. I'm sure those kids parents want their kids involved. I know I would. If ND had a kid attend that just wont get right you can and will cut ties with him. Nothing wrong with that. Wished public schools could expel a kid that easy but they cant and if/ when they eventually are able too, they have to carry that kids expulsion with them when the school is graded by the state. I completely agree that kids sit on the roster of a public school who will not play a sport or contribute to the school in any way as well as the fact that more private school kids are motivated to play sports. But this is also true with some of the public schools too. This will also very by sport and by geographic region.In a system based on classification of numbers small multipliers that are multi teared should exist. Winnfield would not be subject to one but Notre Dame would be. If interested i'll post a breakdown of the best idea i've heard. It's from one of the nd assistant coaches.Yes I would like to see the breakdown.
The more I read the post on here, the more I come to understand some of the private schools gripes. It seem most are surrounded by public schools engaged in the same tactics that caused the split.
The issue I still have is the fact that a lot of public schools cant or don't do these things. "out of zone" means absolutely nothing to a person from Winn Parish, Jackson Parish, Red River etc... Schools like Winnfield's zone is 25-30 miles on every side and even then we are lucky to have 350 kids enrolled in school. I may not like the split as it stands, but there was an obvious need for change.
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Post by indy on Oct 3, 2019 14:34:01 GMT -6
It was obvious Curtis and Evangel were in the wrong classification but other private’s were winning a disproportionate number of games. The large city metros won’t more than “select” did.
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Post by Raven on Oct 3, 2019 14:52:22 GMT -6
I wouldn't mind seeing an idea for a different plan as well. I like the idea of enrollment modifiers being placed on a school based on location and area population limits.
I still think there should be an additional modifier that takes into account the athletic budget of a school as it relates to total school population. Schools may have similar enrollments, but if one places a higher emphasis on sports than the other and is willing and able to spend the money to hire additional coaches or upgrading it's facilities, then that would add or subtract from the established enrollment numbers of the schools to determine classification.
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Post by chalmetteowl on Oct 6, 2019 0:16:19 GMT -6
I wouldn't mind seeing an idea for a different plan as well. I like the idea of enrollment modifiers being placed on a school based on location and area population limits. I still think there should be an additional modifier that takes into account the athletic budget of a school as it relates to total school population. Schools may have similar enrollments, but if one places a higher emphasis on sports than the other and is willing and able to spend the money to hire additional coaches or upgrading it's facilities, then that would add or subtract from the established enrollment numbers of the schools to determine classification. the problem with your plan Raven is that not all money that has an effect on athletic events needs to be in an athletic budget. Schools would easily get around having to report their true budgets and boosters would pay for most things
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Post by Raven on Oct 6, 2019 1:20:38 GMT -6
I wouldn't mind seeing an idea for a different plan as well. I like the idea of enrollment modifiers being placed on a school based on location and area population limits. I still think there should be an additional modifier that takes into account the athletic budget of a school as it relates to total school population. Schools may have similar enrollments, but if one places a higher emphasis on sports than the other and is willing and able to spend the money to hire additional coaches or upgrading it's facilities, then that would add or subtract from the established enrollment numbers of the schools to determine classification. the problem with your plan Raven is that not all money that has an effect on athletic events needs to be in an athletic budget. Schools would easily get around having to report their true budgets and boosters would pay for most things Even donated items from boosters can have a value attached to it. As long as it's accounted for in some form it can be it can be connected to the athletic budget. If it does not get accounted for and a school tries to hide it then that school gets audited and the discrepancies are found, there should be stiff penalties that are enforceable by the LHSAA.
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Post by indy on Oct 7, 2019 12:13:37 GMT -6
Help me out on how to quantify the money and support deal.
A week from Friday i'll post the layout of the plan.
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