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Post by eag on Apr 18, 2016 10:40:13 GMT -6
Here is what Indiana does to create a balanced playing field. What do you guys think is wrong with it? Why is our current split better in your mind? What does this not address? Simple. 100% effective in placing teams in appropriate level of competition. 100% unlikely to hose middling programs that share a single characteristic with the juggernauts but don't misuse that characteristic. Catches misusers of any particular advantage, not just certain ones. You aren't punishing Vandebilt Catholic because no one can beat Curtis, which is simply wrong to do. And you could have games like Newman vs Many, Lutcher vs St Louis, Haynesville vs Hamilton Christian. Those would be good, fun games. All the benefit of the 2013 split, none of the downside. Organization stays whole, and represents ALL its members. Avoids the issue of a separate Private school organization that would not be bound by LHSAA recruiting rules and could really create some issues. What is the downside?
Indiana High School Athletic Association, Inc.
TEAM SPORTS RECLASSIFICATION – TOURNAMENT SUCCESS FACTOR
a. In team sports, schools shall be subject to reclassification at the conclusion of a reclassification period on a sport-by-sport basis dependent on the school’s tournament series success during the previous reclassification period.
b. A school shall earn the assigned point values for the final level of the tournament series the school achieves during the previous reclassification period as follows:
(1.) Sectional championship – 1 point (2.) Regional championship – 2 points (3.) Semi-State championship – 3 points (4.) State championship – 4 points
c. If a school in any enrollment class achieves a tournament series success point value of six (6) points or greater in a specific sport during the previous reclassification period, such school shall move up to the next available larger enrollment class for the next reclassification period. A change in a school’s enrollment which would otherwise result in a change of the school’s enrollment classes shall not apply to a school which changes classes under this section, unless the enrollment change would result in the school being placed in a enrollment class larger than the enrollment class dictated by this section, and in that circumstance, the school shall be placed in the enrollment class determined by the school’s enrollment for the next reclassification period.
d. If a school which has participated in a larger enrollment class during the previous reclassification period achieves a tournament series success point value of Four (4) or Five (5) points in a specific sport, such school shall remain in the same enrollment class in that sport for the next reclassification period. The foregoing notwithstanding, if there is a change in the school’s enrollment which would result in the school being placed in a larger enrollment class than the enrollment class dictated by this section, then in that circumstance the school shall be placed in the enrollment class determined by the school’s enrollment for the next reclassification period.
e. If a school which has participated in a larger enrollment class during the previous reclassification period achieves a tournament series success point value of Three (3) points or less in a specific sport, such school shall be placed in the enrollment class dictated by the school’s enrollment for the next reclassification period.
f. When setting the number of schools in a particular class, Rule 2-2 of the IHSAA bylaws shall be implemented. Should a school be placed in a class of schools with larger enrollments due to their success, the school with the smallest enrollment in the class shall be moved to the next classification down containing schools with smaller enrollments. Note: Class 6A and Class 5A in football shall always contain 32 teams.
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Post by Raven on Apr 18, 2016 11:00:47 GMT -6
I would say that is a good start. Add in a multiplier for out-of-zone students and include btown's suggestion of using the percentage of a school's student body participating in athletics to adjust a school's enrollment number and I think this would be a fine idea.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2016 11:02:32 GMT -6
I have little problem with it...........EXCEPT, that from a public HS sector standpoint, when the normal, statistically correct, cyclical win/loss cycle is at a high (winning), then the following classes are somewhat "punished" for the previous classes success.
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Post by eag on Apr 18, 2016 12:26:00 GMT -6
I have little problem with it...........EXCEPT, that from a public HS sector standpoint, when the normal, statistically correct, cyclical win/loss cycle is at a high (winning), then the following classes are somewhat "punished" for the previous classes success. That is my only issue. But when I think about it critically, it appears that if a school was 'over classified' it would likely be only for two years on that system and would only be possible if those players had already won a ton. Personally I'd modify it so after reclassing a team could actually drop back after only 1 year if they fail to win a playoff game - basically a minor reclassification meeting on off years. Would take all of 5 min to do it at the convention.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2016 12:28:13 GMT -6
I think the biggest issue that anyone would have with a plan like this is its a little complicated, and it does have potential to punish schools who drop off athletically on occassion.
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Post by publicgradprivatedad on May 13, 2016 8:20:27 GMT -6
I think the biggest issue that anyone would have with a plan like this is its a little complicated, and it does have potential to punish schools who drop off athletically on occassion. It isn't that complicated, just a little simple math used. The most any school would have to play up is 2 years. The reason it is in 2 year cycles is that is because that is when the LHSAA re-classifies.
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Post by iknownuthing on May 13, 2016 8:30:54 GMT -6
I have little problem with it...........EXCEPT, that from a public HS sector standpoint, when the normal, statistically correct, cyclical win/loss cycle is at a high (winning), then the following classes are somewhat "punished" for the previous classes success. Yes, there is a problem of course that you might have a down year and get thrown out of the 1st round of the playoffs, but there is no problem with throwing a whole class of association members out of the playoffs completely. Now that is special.
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2016 10:15:05 GMT -6
I have little problem with it...........EXCEPT, that from a public HS sector standpoint, when the normal, statistically correct, cyclical win/loss cycle is at a high (winning), then the following classes are somewhat "punished" for the previous classes success. Yes, there is a problem of course that you might have a down year and get thrown out of the 1st round of the playoffs, but there is no problem with throwing a whole class of association members out of the playoffs completely. Now that is special. Your perspective is incorrect. We threw out the Non-Select Schools from YOUR playoffs. Now do you feel better?
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Post by indy on May 13, 2016 10:19:58 GMT -6
Yes, there is a problem of course that you might have a down year and get thrown out of the 1st round of the playoffs, but there is no problem with throwing a whole class of association members out of the playoffs completely. Now that is special. Your perspective is incorrect. We threw out the Non-Select Schools from YOUR playoffs. Now do you feel better? We? You legends must have special mirrors. Geez you week
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2016 12:41:55 GMT -6
Your perspective is incorrect. We threw out the Non-Select Schools from YOUR playoffs. Now do you feel better? We? You legends must have special mirrors. Geez you week Legends amoung you, and you dont even know it. Then again, that fits into the plethora of things you dont know. R say Prince
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Post by indy on May 13, 2016 12:50:07 GMT -6
We? You legends must have special mirrors. Geez you week Legends amoung you, and you dont even know it. Then again, that fits into the plethora of things you dont know. R say Prince Guessing by your lame name you were a super nerd in high school and didn't even play sports. Now you have a made up "record setting" coaching career in a pretend school. And let me guess, your principal is the great and powerful Oz? You are UNcredible!
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Post by btown on May 13, 2016 12:55:37 GMT -6
Anger and intolerance are the enemies of correct understanding.
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Post by indy on May 13, 2016 13:02:53 GMT -6
Anger and intolerance are the enemies of correct understanding. Stupid is as stupid does
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Post by btown on May 13, 2016 13:06:40 GMT -6
Anger and intolerance are the enemies of correct understanding. Stupid is as stupid does So you are Forest Gump? Makes sense now.
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Post by publicgradprivatedad on May 13, 2016 13:11:03 GMT -6
How about instead of name calling or putting each other down we try to have an adult conversation/dialogue about different ideas. If you don't like the idea don't start going at each other, try seeing it from both sides and try to come up with a solution. I know we (all of us) won't always agree, but if we can come up with a good enough idea and we each talk to our schools principal maybe we can at least get past the name calling and insults.
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Post by btown on May 13, 2016 13:14:22 GMT -6
How about instead of name calling or putting each other down we try to have an adult conversation/dialogue about different ideas. If you don't like the idea don't start going at each other, try seeing it from both sides and try to come up with a solution. I know we (all of us) won't always agree, but if we can come up with a good enough idea and we each talk to our schools principal maybe we can at least get past the name calling and insults. Agreed. It just gets very hard when a person does not give respect. Do not have to agree with you on anything, but every one deserves respect. He just makes it to much fun sometimes. I will stop.
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Post by publicgradprivatedad on May 13, 2016 13:18:32 GMT -6
How about instead of name calling or putting each other down we try to have an adult conversation/dialogue about different ideas. If you don't like the idea don't start going at each other, try seeing it from both sides and try to come up with a solution. I know we (all of us) won't always agree, but if we can come up with a good enough idea and we each talk to our schools principal maybe we can at least get past the name calling and insults. Agreed. It just gets very hard when a person does not give respect. Do not have to agree with you on anything, but every one deserves respect. He just makes it to much fun sometimes. I will stop. Guess I just expected more from you, we've had some good back and forth before. We don't always agree but at least you "listen" and then either agree or let us know your side/thoughts. Some (not naming names, you know who you are) on here hafta be just kids or adults that only want to start the name calling because they think that's the way to be "heard"
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Post by publicgradprivatedad on May 13, 2016 13:24:37 GMT -6
I brought this thread back up so we could discuss the pros & cons of it. If enough of us can "agree" on a solution then maybe we can start to get the principal at "our" school to start looking at it or working on a solution instead of the mess we have now.
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Post by btown on May 13, 2016 13:26:42 GMT -6
Agreed. It just gets very hard when a person does not give respect. Do not have to agree with you on anything, but every one deserves respect. He just makes it to much fun sometimes. I will stop. Guess I just expected more from you, we've had some good back and forth before. We don't always agree but at least you "listen" and then either agree or let us know your side/thoughts. Some (not naming names, you know who you are) on here hafta be just kids or adults that only want to start the name calling because they think that's the way to be "heard" Just not really anything to talk about. Keeping hearing this idea, what about this idea. Why not talk about how to improve the split, because it is here and not going anywhere. 1. Balance the brackets so everone has the same number of playoff games 2. Develope a competition committe 3. Have the competition committe but teams in correct classification. Some need to go up and some need to go down. 4. Play championship same weekend or rotate. 5. Once they have a handle on that may look at placing teams in correct playoff bracket.
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Post by btown on May 13, 2016 13:32:21 GMT -6
I brought this thread back up so we could discuss the pros & cons of it. If enough of us can "agree" on a solution then maybe we can start to get the principal at "our" school to start looking at it or working on a solution instead of the mess we have now. Still do not see the big problem with split. Prior to split. 1. 5 classfications 2. Any team could play any team they wanted to regular season. 3. Play on certain teams in playoffs Now
1. Same but more playoff brackets.
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Post by eag on May 13, 2016 13:32:26 GMT -6
I put it up because it is what I think is the best solution. I can see no real downside, as the most a team would ever be sent up is 2 years so a kid with a 4 year career can never be prevented from being on a championship-caliber team. And I'd be OK with a mini- meeting to send teams back down after only 1 year if that helps. See who got moved up that cycle, check success, move back down if needed. % minute meeting could do it-- heck email would be sufficient. No one could ever really object to being moved as it is a completely objective, score-based decision. No biases, no feelings, no 'I think', no favoritism, and it doesn't matter what factors or cheats lead to the out-of-range success.
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Post by btown on May 13, 2016 13:37:21 GMT -6
The start to any idea that I have seen posted is a competition committee. But remember LHSAA voted that do. Which ever way it goes there needs to be a competition committee that can put teams where they belong in classification or even playoffs.
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Post by publicgradprivatedad on May 13, 2016 13:41:36 GMT -6
Guess I just expected more from you, we've had some good back and forth before. We don't always agree but at least you "listen" and then either agree or let us know your side/thoughts. Some (not naming names, you know who you are) on here hafta be just kids or adults that only want to start the name calling because they think that's the way to be "heard" Just not really anything to talk about. Keeping hearing this idea, what about this idea. Why not talk about how to improve the split, because it is here and not going anywhere. 1. Balance the brackets so everone has the same number of playoff games 2. Develope a competition committe 3. Have the competition committe but teams in correct classification. Some need to go up and some need to go down. 4. Play championship same weekend or rotate. 5. Once they have a handle on that may look at placing teams in correct playoff bracket. OK, lets look at your list. 1. Balance brackets.....The brackets for "select" side is 16, if we make the "non-select" 16 I have no problem with that, lets start that Fall 2016. Just remember that Division I "select 5A" only has 9 teams. 2. Comp Committee....That's basically what this plan does, at least in the moving the more successful teams up for competition. At least for 2 years, or next reclassification period. 3. Same as # 2 except the moving down part, I'm not sure how this would work but am open to ideas. 4. If you have the brackets with the same #, unless either "select" or "non-select" has a bye put in somewhere they will be on same weekend. 5. Not sure what you mean by "placing teams in correct playoff bracket" can mean unless your going to move some "select" schools to "non-select" bracket and vice versa. That would mean ending the split as it is known and I'm not sure you will get much support from the "split side" I hope some other people can look at this and see if this can be the beginning of putting together a plan.
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Post by btown on May 13, 2016 13:41:45 GMT -6
The start to any idea that I have seen posted is a competition committee. But remember LHSAA voted that do. Which ever way it goes there needs to be a competition committee that can put teams where they belong in classification or even playoffs. But remember LHSAA voted that down.
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Post by publicgradprivatedad on May 13, 2016 13:49:36 GMT -6
The start to any idea that I have seen posted is a competition committee. But remember LHSAA voted that do. Which ever way it goes there needs to be a competition committee that can put teams where they belong in classification or even playoffs. But remember LHSAA voted that down. Yes, I agree they voted it down and agree that some type of committee is needed. I do like that the plan that started this thread does most of the work for this committee.
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Post by btown on May 13, 2016 13:59:56 GMT -6
But remember LHSAA voted that down. Yes, I agree they voted it down and agree that some type of committee is needed. I do like that the plan that started this thread does most of the work for this committee. Anyone can develope a list of what the committee would look at. Most teams you can look and tell what years they will be top performance and what years they want. You cannot just say ok you won the state championship the last two years you go up. Might not have any talent coming up. In other words, first year had a great Sr., Jr. and Soph class. The Jr. class being your strength. Next year great Sr. and Jr. class, Soph and Fresh are small and not talented. The third year that you would move them up the Sr. class is all have not enough supporting talent. Being moved up 2 years and to get beat up bad for two years could destroy a program.
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Post by btown on May 13, 2016 14:01:32 GMT -6
The Coach should also be able to present to the committee why they should not be moved up. A appeal process.
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Post by indy on May 13, 2016 15:39:01 GMT -6
Forcing a team up sounds good and easy but to me has serious problems. First is why punish the whole school. A team might be great in one sport and suck a another. Second and I'll use kinder. Why punish the football program for doing things right. They have an obviously good coaching staff, great kids that work hard and buy into the program. They have a great alumni, town, and fan support. They in a district with long time rivals. So punish them for being good and reward a team down for all the oppisite reasons? Doesn't make sense. Let's take Cecelia, they just unloaded a mediocre coach at best. Now they got a new coach and staff and let's say they do everything above that kinder does and brings Cecelia back to the top where they use to and should be. Now punish them? I don't see it. To me a formula would have to include population. Allen parish has 25k people, subdivisions in Nola, BR, Shreveport, and Monroe have that many people. if kinder draws the best of the best from a parish with 25k Notre Dame with 65k and Calvery with 250k, there is your problem. But don't penalize for hard work and good coaches.
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Post by btown on May 13, 2016 16:01:06 GMT -6
Forcing a team up sounds good and easy but to me has serious problems. First is why punish the whole school. A team might be great in one sport and suck a another. Second and I'll use kinder. Why punish the football program for doing things right. They have an obviously good coaching staff, great kids that work hard and buy into the program. They have a great alumni, town, and fan support. They in a district with long time rivals. So punish them for being good and reward a team down for all the oppisite reasons? Doesn't make sense. Let's take Cecelia, they just unloaded a mediocre coach at best. Now they got a new coach and staff and let's say they do everything above that kinder does and brings Cecelia back to the top where they use to and should be. Now punish them? I don't see it. To me a formula would have to include population. Allen parish has 25k people, subdivisions in Nola, BR, Shreveport, and Monroe have that many people. if kinder draws the best of the best from a parish with 25k Notre Dame with 65k and Calvery with 250k, there is your problem. But don't penalize for hard work and good coaches. First of all you should only move a team up by sport not school. Second that is why you need a competition committee to evaluate teams. Just because a team has been successful for two years does not mean you will be successful the next two years. Move a team up that has no talent coming up could destroy a program.
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Post by indy on May 13, 2016 16:05:07 GMT -6
Forcing a team up sounds good and easy but to me has serious problems. First is why punish the whole school. A team might be great in one sport and suck a another. Second and I'll use kinder. Why punish the football program for doing things right. They have an obviously good coaching staff, great kids that work hard and buy into the program. They have a great alumni, town, and fan support. They in a district with long time rivals. So punish them for being good and reward a team down for all the oppisite reasons? Doesn't make sense. Let's take Cecelia, they just unloaded a mediocre coach at best. Now they got a new coach and staff and let's say they do everything above that kinder does and brings Cecelia back to the top where they use to and should be. Now punish them? I don't see it. To me a formula would have to include population. Allen parish has 25k people, subdivisions in Nola, BR, Shreveport, and Monroe have that many people. if kinder draws the best of the best from a parish with 25k Notre Dame with 65k and Calvery with 250k, there is your problem. But don't penalize for hard work and good coaches. First of all you should only move a team up by sport not school. Second that is why you need a competition committee to evaluate teams. Just because a team has been successful for two years does not mean you will be successful the next two years. Move a team up that has no talent coming up could destroy a program.
Well looky here. Me and btown agree on something.
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