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Post by chalmetteowl on May 16, 2016 1:45:22 GMT -6
clearly them winning 3 straight 5A baseball championships, which hasn't been done before IIRC, is bad for the LHSAA. it just happens to coincide with class 5A adopting the best of 3 series in the 2nd and 3rd round of the state playoffs.
would yall support going back to single game playoffs all the way through to increase the likelihood of an upset? other 5A teams need to feel like they have hope
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2016 6:25:42 GMT -6
NO. I like how its set up. Hats off to Glenn and his team. They werent the most talented team i saw this year but they know how to win when it counts. LHS beat them twice this year but faded at the end of the year. I thought Catholic and Byrd were more talented. Just goes to show you that some of us need to take a page out of his book and put personal opinions aside about him.
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Post by btown on May 16, 2016 7:29:20 GMT -6
No, like it the way it is. The series shows who is the best team. A team cannot ride one pitcher which is better on the kids.
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Post by chalmetteowl on May 16, 2016 10:36:27 GMT -6
we're not deciding the best team... we're deciding a champion which doesn't have to be one and the same...
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Post by btown on May 16, 2016 10:41:42 GMT -6
we're not deciding the best team... we're deciding a champion which doesn't have to be one and the same... Should be the same. Does not always happen but that is the goal. |
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Post by Sixpack on May 16, 2016 14:24:01 GMT -6
clearly them winning 3 straight 5A baseball championships, which hasn't been done before IIRC, is bad for the LHSAA. it just happens to coincide with class 5A adopting the best of 3 series in the 2nd and 3rd round of the state playoffs. would yall support going back to single game playoffs all the way through to increase the likelihood of an upset? other 5A teams need to feel like they have hope |
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Post by Sixpack on May 16, 2016 14:45:06 GMT -6
we're not deciding the best team... we're deciding a champion which doesn't have to be one and the same...
I have had this discussion with one or two people on this board before and the idea that anyone other than the champion is the best team is an oxymoron. It is completely self contradictory. The whole reason for competition is to determine who has the best team on the field so the state champion is ALWAYS the best team in the state. To say otherwise is simply an OPINION. |
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2016 5:49:30 GMT -6
Only thing I would change is the site itself. But no way Lhsaa moves it bc of how convenient the turf and amount of fields there are. I liked it when the sites were split up. Truchin was a great place for the 5a championship. If you cant agree on it there then find a place in Alexandria were no one gets a home field advantage.
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Post by chalmetteowl on May 17, 2016 8:04:00 GMT -6
we're not deciding the best team... we're deciding a champion which doesn't have to be one and the same...
I have had this discussion with one or two people on this board before and the idea that anyone other than the champion is the best team is an oxymoron. It is completely self contradictory. The whole reason for competition is to determine who has the best team on the field so the state champion is ALWAYS the best team in the state. To say otherwise is simply an OPINION.the state champion is the state champion... but if it's a low seed that got hot you just can't call them the best team with a straight face |
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Post by Sixpack on May 17, 2016 12:13:55 GMT -6
The champion is by definition the BEST team.
I have had this discussion with one or two people on this board before and the idea that anyone other than the champion is the best team is an oxymoron. It is completely self contradictory. The whole reason for competition is to determine who has the best team on the field so the state champion is ALWAYS the best team in the state. To say otherwise is simply an OPINION. the state champion is the state champion... but if it's a low seed that got hot you just can't call them the best team with a straight face |
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2016 16:17:41 GMT -6
Let the opposing team deem 3 players ineligible of there choosing then slap the school on there hand for being successful. Then claim they're cheating then put them in a super class's all by there selves and let them play a ghost team. There problem solved. Kick them out and put them in a select division that way the publics will get a true champion? Lmao
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Post by cjr3888 on May 17, 2016 18:18:26 GMT -6
Want to stop their run, start with your youth program. I know it's harder for larger school than it is for us since our rec, travel, & school teams funnel up to our varsity. South Lake Charles Little League and Barbe go hand in hand. It has taken us a few years and we were down this year but still won district with half our starters that didn't come through our program. We are now set up to contend for many years with the talent we have from 9th down to 5th grade. There's a large group of us that work together to help all the school programs (good thing about a small town). Now we are starting to build the same program for our girls softball (doubled our park girls program in the last 3 years). The other schools in the area are also set up pretty good because we all play each other in elementary and middle school.
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Post by 64 on May 17, 2016 20:12:10 GMT -6
clearly them winning 3 straight 5A baseball championships, which hasn't been done before IIRC, is bad for the LHSAA. St Amant won 3 in a row from 1993-1995 in 5A. that's the only other time. ALL TIME BASEBALL CHAMPIONSHIP LIST. www.14-0productions.com/Louisiana_Baseball.htmlif you can fill in some of those blanks on that list email me. thanks. |
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Post by gentlemanjack on May 19, 2016 10:40:47 GMT -6
the state champion is the state champion... but if it's a low seed that got hot you just can't call them the best team with a straight face I like your argument Six but it has flaws for if that is so then why does baseball purest insist on a 3-5-7 game series to determine the winner? A single game would be enough, but it isn't because one can ride that one pitcher. Well hell what about the other 8 positions on the team. Also, the LHSAA isn't worried about having the so called best at the championship level for is they did in track and field they would not have stipulations whereby only the top 4 from district and top 3 from regional qualify for state. It is the only true pure sport that doesn't need a math equation to determine who is faster or throws the furthest but yet they don't get them all assemble at the state meet. In nearly all other major sports in HS they manipulate the system by using a PR math equation to do what is answered on the field. It is this that I do agree with you for the ultimate determination is head to head competition. |
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2016 12:57:45 GMT -6
The state championship game is the most important game of the year for every team in the state, right? So if a low seed gets hot and wins the state championship and the low seed is NOT the best team in the state why did the best team in the state allow the low seed to win the most important game of the year? Is it because "getting hot" doesn't count in baseball or is it because the best team just didn't want to win the state championship? Which? I like your argument Six but it has flaws for if that is so then why does baseball purest insist on a 3-5-7 game series to determine the winner? A single game would be enough, but it isn't because one can ride that one pitcher. Well hell what about the other 8 positions on the team. Also, the LHSAA isn't worried about having the so called best at the championship level for is they did in track and field they would not have stipulations whereby only the top 4 from district and top 3 from regional qualify for state. It is the only true pure sport that doesn't need a math equation to determine who is faster or throws the furthest but yet they don't get them all assemble at the state meet. In nearly all other major sports in HS they manipulate the system by using a PR math equation to do what is answered on the field. It is this that I do agree with you for the ultimate determination is head to head competition. [The LHSAA hasn't been worried about the best teams in the championship since the all mighty split. Next year will be plenty of JV championships. Lol |
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Post by Sixpack on May 19, 2016 13:22:22 GMT -6
The state championship game is the most important game of the year for every team in the state, right? So if a low seed gets hot and wins the state championship and the low seed is NOT the best team in the state why did the best team in the state allow the low seed to win the most important game of the year? Is it because "getting hot" doesn't count in baseball or is it because the best team just didn't want to win the state championship? Which? I like your argument Six but it has flaws for if that is so then why does baseball purest insist on a 3-5-7 game series to determine the winner? A single game would be enough, but it isn't because one can ride that one pitcher. Well hell what about the other 8 positions on the team. Also, the LHSAA isn't worried about having the so called best at the championship level for is they did in track and field they would not have stipulations whereby only the top 4 from district and top 3 from regional qualify for state. It is the only true pure sport that doesn't need a math equation to determine who is faster or throws the furthest but yet they don't get them all assemble at the state meet. In nearly all other major sports in HS they manipulate the system by using a PR math equation to do what is answered on the field. It is this that I do agree with you for the ultimate determination is head to head competition.
I was pointing out that the the state championship team is ALWAYS the best team in the state and to say otherwise is only an OPINION. Therefore as long as the rules are fair for everyone there should never be any kind of official format designed to keep a team from winning championships no mater how many championships they have won in the past. That would be doing nothing but penalizing success.
Let me use your own examples to explain what I mean. It doesn't matter if a very low seed wins the state title over a much higher seed after a ONE game playoff win or after a FIVE game playoff win. The low seed got to the title game playing by the same rules as the higher seed, right? Therefore the low seed has the same right to be in the title game as the higher seed no matter what anyone's opinion about the lower seed is, right? Whether it's a one game tittle win or a five game title win by the low seed there is no reasonable argument anyone could possibly make to say the low seed is NOT the best team in the state. Anyone saying that is only stating their OPINION about what they think should have happened. When you say the low seed rode one pitcher to the title that's not an indication that they weren't a good team. In fact it's just another way of saying the low seed was a better team than the higher seed because they had a great pitcher.
Here's my point. If a 9-18 baseball team gets into the playoffs and plays by the same playoff rules as everyone else and beats a 27-0 team for the state title whether it's a one game format or a five game format and you tell me after the championship game that the 26-0 team is a better team than the 9-17 team then that is based on nothing but your opinion of what you think should have happened. If I tell you the 9-17 team is the best team in the state what I am saying is based on what did happen all the way through the playoffs and title game which is the same as FACT. If I am wrong where am I wrong?
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Post by chalmetteowl on May 19, 2016 19:30:50 GMT -6
well the rules would be the same for everybody either way... but if the playoffs were one game all the way through we might have more upsets and more possible champions.
the best team in a class or the whole state is an opinion, but it's always a team either undefeated, or less than 5 losses the whole way through. i also think it's pretty illogical to declare someone the best team over the last two weeks and ignore the 8 weeks before that.
the state champions might be the best team most of the time, and if you're in the conversation for it, the state championship enhances that argument, but the best team IMO is whom would win the most if you played the season, game, playoffs, etc. a thousand times, and not just the once that we do.
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Post by Sixpack on May 19, 2016 20:29:10 GMT -6
well the rules would be the same for everybody either way... but if the playoffs were one game all the way through we might have more upsets and more possible champions. the best team in a class or the whole state is an opinion, but it's always a team either undefeated, or less than 5 losses the whole way through. i also think it's pretty illogical to declare someone the best team over the last two weeks and ignore the 8 weeks before that. the state champions might be the best team most of the time, and if you're in the conversation for it, the state championship enhances that argument, but the best team IMO is whom would win the most if you played the season, game, playoffs, etc. a thousand times, and not just the once that we do.
Look at your own words owl. You base your argument on the letters "IMO". That proves my point. I understand your point about what might happen if the lower and higher seeded teams played over and over. Common sense says the higher seed would win most of the games. But we don't KNOW that do we. It is just an opinion. It's just possible that the lower seed team might win most of the games. So what do we do? We let them settle it on the field in the state tournament with the same rules for everybody.
Here's where you and I disagree.
If the lower seed team beats the higher seed team for the title you think it as illogical to say the lower seed WINNER is actually a better team than the higher seed LOSER. I think just the opposite. When two teams play each other I think it is 100% illogical to EVER say the LOSER of the game is better than the WINNER of the game. |
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Post by chalmetteowl on May 20, 2016 6:48:04 GMT -6
okay, my guys Chalmette, we played John Ehret twice. They beat us twice, including for the district championship. You would say John Ehret was better.
except we had more wins in the regular season (21-13), against tougher competition (average, .518 to .494), our playoff seed was better (19 vs. 32 or 50), and we won our first playoff game and Ehret didn't (admittedly theirs was against Barbe). they can have their district title t-shirts. we're still a better program than them and most fans would agree.
when i talk about good, better, and best, i'm talking about over a whole season of baseball. of course the better team every game wins it, as opposed to losing it.
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Post by rvanicor on May 20, 2016 9:21:36 GMT -6
A lot plays into the win and loss of a game. Also strength of schedule is a major factor in seeding and although you might be the better team through the season tons of things come into play. 1 pitching is huge, everyone has a stud but do you have 3-4 of them who win keep you in games where you score under 4 to 3 runs. Also some coaches that do not have 3-4 really rely on that true stud for district and big games only. Also with pitching you have off days, days needed of rest and basically a limit as to how much a kid can go through a season. You have to consider these boys play showcase, And tournament ball in summer and some in fall so the way it is set up best of 3 to me best determines the best team and not who has the best stud. 2 hitting this is a hot and cold all day. 9 batters will not average above .325 most of the time. So to say one game sums it up is not correct. In pro, college baseball they have series because anyone can beat anyone as long as you have that one stud, play error free ball and find ways to get on base. I like the best of 3 to me it finds the best overall team. 3 coaching and injuries coaching is huge part. A coach has to know how to manage his team. What calls to make, who to start on mound, lineup changes to produce more runs, to keep these kids emotionally in the game and in the classroom. Injuries play huge huge part having a full healthy team does make a difference. Having a stud or varsity starter does more than hurt a lineup. Leadership, morale, coach on the field, younger kids put into starting role earlier then projected plays another huge part. At the end of the day you either win or lose and the way the series or schedule or game time game location honestly does not matter. You either outplay or get outplayed plain and simple. That's why the series works.
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Post by Sixpack on May 20, 2016 22:36:25 GMT -6
okay, my guys Chalmette, we played John Ehret twice. They beat us twice, including for the district championship. You would say John Ehret was better. except we had more wins in the regular season (21-13), against tougher competition (average, .518 to .494), our playoff seed was better (19 vs. 32 or 50), and we won our first playoff game and Ehret didn't (admittedly theirs was against Barbe). they can have their district title t-shirts. we're still a better program than them and most fans would agree. when i talk about good, better, and best, i'm talking about over a whole season of baseball. of course the better team every game wins it, as opposed to losing it.
Talking about how good you think a team is based on their past record is just stating an opinion that doesn't really mean anything. If records really meant something there would be no need to have a playoff. The state champion could be determined by simply using a power rating index based on wins and strength of competition.
I know exactly what you mean about basing who you think is best by looking at the entire season. And what I'm telling you is it means absolutely nothing.
Look at this. If Chalmette happened to have a 0-8 record in football next year and they played John Curtis and Curtis had a record of 8-0 at the time and Chalmette won the game Curtis could talk about past records forever and it wouldn't mean a freakin thing. If that game was their only meeting of the year Chalmette would FOREVER be a better football team in that particular year than Curtis. And it wouldn't matter if Curtis won the rest of their games that year and won the state championship. As far as Curtis and Chalmette are concerned Chalmette would always be a better team than Curtis in that particular year and anyone saying Curtis was better is simply offering an illogical opinion.
If that sounds crazy put it to the test. To anyone who looks at what I just said and still says Curtis was better than Chalmette in that particular year because Curtis went 12-1 and won the state title while Chalmette went 1-10 I have two questions.
First I would ask did Curtis deliberately lose to Chalmette?. If their answer is NO then I would simply say "check the scoreboard".
Case closed. |
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Post by chalmetteowl on May 21, 2016 7:02:51 GMT -6
I'm sorry, I have too much respect for your history of posting, but you're full of ish.
You're not understanding a game vs. a season vs. a decade vs. all-time... one game of something is one game, then you go home, go to sleep, and it becomes history, just numbers in a book and memories for the kids.
You're an Evangel fan. You couldn't say their championship history is better than most programs without necessarily having to play and beat them? They've never played Chalmette. With Evangel's idk, 12 championships and our none, I can admit they're a better program than us. You would say "we don't know until we play", which is disingenuous because we all know. If that game ever happens and my Owls win, that alone won't make us better. If we go on a run of championships, that will.
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Post by Sixpack on May 21, 2016 19:48:01 GMT -6
I'm sorry, I have too much respect for your history of posting, but you're full of ish. You're not understanding a game vs. a season vs. a decade vs. all-time... one game of something is one game, then you go home, go to sleep, and it becomes history, just numbers in a book and memories for the kids. You're an Evangel fan. You couldn't say their championship history is better than most programs without necessarily having to play and beat them? They've never played Chalmette. With Evangel's idk, 12 championships and our none, I can admit they're a better program than us. You would say "we don't know until we play", which is disingenuous because we all know. If that game ever happens and my Owls win, that alone won't make us better. If we go on a run of championships, that will.
You said the state champion is not necessarily the best team in the state. When the state tournament begins there are two ways to reach the title game. You either have to beat the highest rated teams in the playoffs yourself or you have to beat someone else who beat the highest rated teams. In other words everyone has the same chance and everyone faces the same difficulty.
So if everyone has the same chance, faces the same difficulty, and everyone wants to win the title and everyone is doing their best to win the title let me see you rationally explain, without relying on nothing but your opinion, how the best team could possibly be anyone OTHER than the champion. Can you explain that? |
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Post by publicgradprivatedad on May 26, 2016 6:55:38 GMT -6
I posted this in another thread...Instead of trying to bring Barbe down to your team/schools level go check out what they are doing and try to replicate it with your team/school. Try to bring your team/school UP to Barbe's level, not bring them down to yours.
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Post by Sixpack on May 26, 2016 15:32:01 GMT -6
I posted this in another thread...Instead of trying to bring Barbe down to your team/schools level go check out what they are doing and try to replicate it with your team/school. Try to bring your team/school UP to Barbe's level, not bring them down to yours.
The only reason I got involved in this thread was a suggestion was made that the LHSAA should do something to slow down Barbe's run in baseball. I don't understand the idea of a high school governing body doing something to penalize the athletic success of one of its members. I also don't understand how anyone can use overall records say the loser in a game is better than the winner of the game. |
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Post by publicgradprivatedad on May 26, 2016 15:43:24 GMT -6
I posted this in another thread...Instead of trying to bring Barbe down to your team/schools level go check out what they are doing and try to replicate it with your team/school. Try to bring your team/school UP to Barbe's level, not bring them down to yours.
The only reason I got involved in this thread was a suggestion was made that the LHSAA should do something to slow down Barbe's run in baseball. I don't understand the idea of a high school governing body doing something to penalize the athletic success of one of its members. I also don't understand how anyone can use overall records say the loser in a game is better than the winner of the game.I don't know when it became a right, not a privilege, to make the playoffs or win championships. I played in the 80's at a public school and were proud when we made the playoffs, and didn't blame everyone else when we didn't. The better team always wins the game, at least on that given day/night, don't know any other way to put it. |
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Post by 1stdown on May 28, 2016 15:08:05 GMT -6
You have to remember, this is coming from a parent, not a player. Most players that play in the games, don't think that way. Barbe has up and down years, just a good run of kids.
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laprepfb
All-District 1st Team
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Post by laprepfb on May 29, 2016 19:08:45 GMT -6
The answer is: get better.
They do have quite a way of accumulating talent from various places, but they are in the highest classification, which should basically be an open division.
What bothers me about them is that they get kids in ways that would spin a lot of heads if they were a private school and they vote for the split every time. Just a tad hypocritical and/or self-serving in my opinion.
But that's a topic for another board.
The answer here is what I started with: get your team better.
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Post by GRIZZ on Jun 3, 2016 17:23:46 GMT -6
Sixpack. These two statements seem to contradict each other.
As far as this thread, I initially thought Chalmetteowl was making a public/private joke regarding a public schools dominance. After further review, I see that he wasn't. lol.
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Post by Sixpack on Jun 6, 2016 17:42:34 GMT -6
Sixpack. These two statements seem to contradict each other. As far as this thread, I initially thought Chalmetteowl was making a public/private joke regarding a public schools dominance. After further review, I see that he wasn't. lol.
A state champion is always the best team in the state based on winning the title in competition. That means they have either beaten the best teams in the playoffs OR they have beaten someone else who has beaten the best teams. That's the only way they could have won the title. BUT suppose the champion is beaten in the regular season by another team and they only play the team that beat them once that year. THEN there is a paradox. On the one hand the champion is the best team in the state based on their playoff title. On the other hand they can NEVER say they are better that year than the team that beat them. That would make no sense. So it's a paradox like which came first the chicken or the egg.
And guess what? I'm beginning to wish I hadn't even brought it up. |
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