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Post by btown on Jul 8, 2016 6:31:15 GMT -6
"In the end, if you examine the most successful programs you will find several common themes. Community support, high levels of participation, stable coaching staffs, developmental programs going back to junior high or elementary school, kids and families willing to give up the time necessary to have effective offseason programs will be present in each one of those programs. They will vary in public/private status. So why is that the criteria we use to separate?" Because if you have two comparable schools, one public and one private, and both schools have community support, high levels of participation, stable coaching staffs, developmental programs going back to junior high or elementary school, kids and families willing to give up the time necessary to have effective offseason programs will be present in each one of those programs, the private school will STILL have a legal advantage over the public school. In fact, it has the legal potential to acquire kids from the attendance zone of the public school. Only from one perspective. The private school is still limited by the number of students whose parents are able and willing to pay the tuition. The public school has access to EVERY student within their zone, the same is not true for the private school. So with all else being equal, the ability to draw from a larger area only levels the playing field for the private school, it doesn't give them an advantage. Public schools has access to EVERY student within their zone, Private school has access to EVERY student in the STATE.
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Post by indy on Jul 8, 2016 6:51:41 GMT -6
Only from one perspective. The private school is still limited by the number of students whose parents are able and willing to pay the tuition. The public school has access to EVERY student within their zone, the same is not true for the private school. So with all else being equal, the ability to draw from a larger area only levels the playing field for the private school, it doesn't give them an advantage. Public schools has access to EVERY student within their zone, Private school has access to EVERY student in the STATE. Again an ic statement by you and Just another excuse for your kind to hide behind. Many public schools don't have or follow zones! and many private schools are a community, whether geographical or secular. And if you want to use the word ACCESS then technogly any student from anywhere has the same ACCESS to any school his family chooses to send them. Simply pay the tuition or move.
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Post by pioneer on Jul 8, 2016 7:06:50 GMT -6
Btown, when practice starts in August I would like to invite you to spend the day in Crowley. You can go watch Crowley practice, then come watch ND practice. Then please tell me who has the better athletes. I know what your answer will be, so then explain to me why is one school consistently winning more than the other.
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Post by kbanes on Jul 8, 2016 7:16:26 GMT -6
"Many public schools don't have or follow zones!"
Ok, this is new. I would assume that you are referring to small population parishes that only have one high school. In this case, there are not attendance zones in the parish, but the parish is the attendence zone. I'm not aware of any public schools that normally allow students from outside their parish borders. Is this what you are referring to?
Because privates have the ability to admit students from, not only their parish, but any other parish. And while you might not like what btown said (" Private school has access to EVERY student in the STATE."), it is not ic, but a true statement. In fact, I seem to remember a certain private school had students from out of state (Texas).
And just to clear up any confusion, you throw out the word "Many...". Just as a rough estimate, how would you define "many", in this case? Is there one example of a parish with multiple high schools that don't have attendance zones? Tell me one, and I will concede the point.
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Post by btown on Jul 8, 2016 7:44:58 GMT -6
Btown, when practice starts in August I would like to invite you to spend the day in Crowley. You can go watch Crowley practice, then come watch ND practice. Then please tell me who has the better athletes. I know what your answer will be, so then explain to me why is one school consistently winning more than the other. Quality student athlete.
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Post by iknownuthing on Jul 8, 2016 8:31:28 GMT -6
"In the end, if you examine the most successful programs you will find several common themes. Community support, high levels of participation, stable coaching staffs, developmental programs going back to junior high or elementary school, kids and families willing to give up the time necessary to have effective offseason programs will be present in each one of those programs. They will vary in public/private status. So why is that the criteria we use to separate?" Because if you have two comparable schools, one public and one private, and both schools have community support, high levels of participation, stable coaching staffs, developmental programs going back to junior high or elementary school, kids and families willing to give up the time necessary to have effective offseason programs will be present in each one of those programs, the private school will STILL have a legal advantage over the public school. In fact, it has the legal potential to acquire kids from the attendance zone of the public school. I agree with your post up till you say "the private school will STILL have a legal advantage over the public school. In fact, it has the legal potential to acquire kids from the attendance zone of the public school." My question to you would be, what makes this an advantage? And I would also ask, do you want to make it "ILLEGAL" for parents whose children attended any public school at any time to chose a private school? If so, what gives the public school exclusive rights to an individual? Isn't that a form of isolationism if not slavery? Are you not advocating that all public school children are the property and wards of the school and not the parent? That people should have no choice and should be controlled by the government? There is a title for that, it is called "Lenin, Marxist Communism".
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Post by indy on Jul 8, 2016 8:33:25 GMT -6
Btown, when practice starts in August I would like to invite you to spend the day in Crowley. You can go watch Crowley practice, then come watch ND practice. Then please tell me who has the better athletes. I know what your answer will be, so then explain to me why is one school consistently winning more than the other. Quality student athlete. They all have the potential to be a quality "student" athlete, all of them with good teachers, coaches, and parents. But God didn't give all of the to be extra special athletes. When Davonte Bourque left Gueydan his first choice was to attend ND, they couldn't afford or chose not to pay the tuition so he went to Crowley where he excelled. He would have excelled anywhere with his talent. ND did just fine that year with a hard working 4 year student athlete whose only scholarship was TOPS!
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Post by publicgradprivatedad on Jul 8, 2016 8:48:58 GMT -6
"Many public schools don't have or follow zones!" Ok, this is new. I would assume that you are referring to small population parishes that only have one high school. In this case, there are not attendance zones in the parish, but the parish is the attendence zone. I'm not aware of any public schools that normally allow students from outside their parish borders. Is this what you are referring to? Because privates have the ability to admit students from, not only their parish, but any other parish. And while you might not like what btown said (" Private school has access to EVERY student in the STATE."), it is not ic, but a true statement. In fact, I seem to remember a certain private school had students from out of state (Texas). And just to clear up any confusion, you throw out the word "Many...". Just as a rough estimate, how would you define "many", in this case? Is there one example of a parish with multiple high schools that don't have attendance zones? Tell me one, and I will concede the point. They may be referencing the Parishes that have open enrollment. Rapides Parish for instance you can choose the high school you attend and are eligible immediately as a Freshman.
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Post by btown on Jul 8, 2016 8:52:50 GMT -6
They all have the potential to be a quality "student" athlete, all of them with good teachers, coaches, and parents. But God didn't give all of the to be extra special athletes. When Davonte Bourque left Gueydan his first choice was to attend ND, they couldn't afford or chose not to pay the tuition so he went to Crowley where he excelled. He would have excelled anywhere with his talent. ND did just fine that year with a hard working 4 year student athlete whose only scholarship was TOPS! I will always give Notre Dame their praise. Smart, intelligent, hard working with good athletic ability will always out do someone with extra special athletic ability with no intelligence. Notre Dame has a lot of top student athlete. This is the side that the private schools supporters will not acknowledge. I will use Notre Dame as an example and it is only an example. Notre Dame has 5 quality student athletes come from the following schools Crowley High, Rayne, Scott, Iota, Eunice, Jennings, Welch, Elton, Laf. area , Kaplan, Gueydan, Midland. That is 60 kids that can legally go to Notre Dame, nothing wrong with parents putting their kids in Notre Dame. Then you go to a public school that can only get students from their attendance zones. Whether the zone is a zone or the parish. Are thing equal? I do know that Notre Dame does not get 5 kids from each area it is an example of what can happen that is well within the LHSAA rules.
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Post by Raven on Jul 8, 2016 8:53:09 GMT -6
Only from one perspective. The private school is still limited by the number of students whose parents are able and willing to pay the tuition. The public school has access to EVERY student within their zone, the same is not true for the private school. So with all else being equal, the ability to draw from a larger area only levels the playing field for the private school, it doesn't give them an advantage. Public schools has access to EVERY student within their zone, Private school has access to EVERY student in the STATE. Not true, my friend. Private schools only have access to the students whose parents have the means as well as the desire to send them that school. Even if they can take advantage of financial assistance offered by the school, if they don't want to go to a private school, they don't have to. So, while theoretically it is LEGAL for a student in Monroe to fly on his private jet every morning to River Ridge to go to the "University" of John Curtis, in practical terms this is not going to happen. In addition, it's not only the free education offered at public and charter school that private schools have to compete with, it's other private schools as well. There is a very limited market for people willing to spend that kind of money when there is a free alternative available. Competition for a piece of that market if fierce. In Baton Rouge, there are no less than 9 schools that charge tuition, all competing for the same group of students. Then throw in the surrounding parishes who have private schools like Ascension, Iberville, East Feliciana and Pointe Coupee. The private schools in those parishes not only compete with the free public education, but also with each other and with the bigger private schools in BR. The belief that any of these schools have the ability to go out and simply pick players they want is not based in any kind of reality when you realize that there is even more competition for students between other private schools than there is between private schools and public schools.
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Post by btown on Jul 8, 2016 8:58:44 GMT -6
Public schools has access to EVERY student within their zone, Private school has access to EVERY student in the STATE. Not true, my friend. Private schools only have access to the students whose parents have the means as well as the desire to send them that school. Even if they can take advantage of financial assistance offered by the school, if they don't want to go to a private school, they don't have to. So, while theoretically it is LEGAL for a student in Monroe to fly on his private jet every morning to River Ridge to go to the "University" of John Curtis, in practical terms this is not going to happen. In addition, it's not only the free education offered at public and charter school that private schools have to compete with, it's other private schools as well. There is a very limited market for people willing to spend that kind of money when there is a free alternative available. Competition for a piece of that market if fierce. In Baton Rouge, there are no less than 9 schools that charge tuition, all competing for the same group of students. Then throw in the surrounding parishes who have private schools like Ascension, Iberville, East Feliciana and Pointe Coupee. The private schools in those parishes not only compete with the free public education, but also with each other and with the bigger private schools in BR. The belief that any of these schools have the ability to go out and simply pick players they want is not based in any kind of reality when you realize that there is even more competition for students between other private schools than there is between private schools and public schools. I never used the work pick, but private school can have kid legal attend their school from a larger area than public schools. Saying the State shows that there is no limit to how far the circle is. When you have a ability to get the best Student athelet out of a large area you have an advantage.
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Post by iknownuthing on Jul 8, 2016 9:05:58 GMT -6
Only from one perspective. The private school is still limited by the number of students whose parents are able and willing to pay the tuition. The public school has access to EVERY student within their zone, the same is not true for the private school. So with all else being equal, the ability to draw from a larger area only levels the playing field for the private school, it doesn't give them an advantage. Public schools has access to EVERY student within their zone, Private school has access to EVERY student in the STATE. This statement rules out feasibility Your conclusion would only be valid if EVERY private school in the state or even the handful that exist today had living quarters. It is unreasonable to think that someone from Monroe would enroll their kids in John Curtis and travel back and forth. If they would be willing to move from New Orleans then Warren Easton, Landry Walker and EVERY OTHER public school would have the exact same advantage.
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Post by indy on Jul 8, 2016 9:14:11 GMT -6
Not true, my friend. Private schools only have access to the students whose parents have the means as well as the desire to send them that school. Even if they can take advantage of financial assistance offered by the school, if they don't want to go to a private school, they don't have to. So, while theoretically it is LEGAL for a student in Monroe to fly on his private jet every morning to River Ridge to go to the "University" of John Curtis, in practical terms this is not going to happen. In addition, it's not only the free education offered at public and charter school that private schools have to compete with, it's other private schools as well. There is a very limited market for people willing to spend that kind of money when there is a free alternative available. Competition for a piece of that market if fierce. In Baton Rouge, there are no less than 9 schools that charge tuition, all competing for the same group of students. Then throw in the surrounding parishes who have private schools like Ascension, Iberville, East Feliciana and Pointe Coupee. The private schools in those parishes not only compete with the free public education, but also with each other and with the bigger private schools in BR. The belief that any of these schools have the ability to go out and simply pick players they want is not based in any kind of reality when you realize that there is even more competition for students between other private schools than there is between private schools and public schools. I never used the work pick, but private school can have kid legal attend their school from a larger area than public schools. Saying the State shows that there is no limit to how far the circle is. When you have a ability to get the best Student athelet out of a large area you have an advantage. I could have chosen for athletic reasons to send my 9 children to Kinder. I could have easily bought a house and commuted or worked from home. or I could have hired a driver and bought a van with the $600k I would have saved on tuition. You can can make that same choice in reverse or pick Jennings, Crowley or Iota if you wish with no tuition. But we both chose not to. You make way to much about others personal decisions.
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Post by iknownuthing on Jul 8, 2016 9:23:06 GMT -6
Btown, when practice starts in August I would like to invite you to spend the day in Crowley. You can go watch Crowley practice, then come watch ND practice. Then please tell me who has the better athletes. I know what your answer will be, so then explain to me why is one school consistently winning more than the other. theadvocate.com/sports/acadianapreps/16218415-123/five-star-defensive-tackle-tyler-shelvin-gets-perspective-back-on-classwork-after-transferring-to-noQuote: "Shelvin’s also adapted to increased expectations on the football field. Notre Dame’s 5:30 a.m. workouts in the spring were an eye-opening experience and the Pios are currently working out four times a week during the summer." Just one of the factors why there is more success at one over the other. Work ethic and workout efficiency. And no, you do not work hard, you just THINK you work hard. Not only that, you are working out WRONG. Once asked one of my son's after a game about the size of the other team, as he had lined up against a 300 pounder and he weight 245, he said he was heavy but soft and had no strength. One of the statements the current coach at Comeaux who worked with the trainers at STM when he was STM told a group of us, is that when he got to Comeaux, they had dedication to working out, but they were not working out correctly. Building big beautiful muscles, but those muscle had little strength. Time will tell if he can change that culture at Comeaux.
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Post by btown on Jul 8, 2016 9:23:15 GMT -6
I never used the work pick, but private school can have kid legal attend their school from a larger area than public schools. Saying the State shows that there is no limit to how far the circle is. When you have a ability to get the best Student athelet out of a large area you have an advantage. I could have chosen for athletic reasons to send my 9 children to Kinder. I could have easily bought a house and commuted or worked from home. or I could have hired a driver and bought a van with the $600k I would have saved on tuition. You can can make that same choice in reverse or pick Jennings, Crowley or Iota if you wish with no tuition. But we both chose not to. You make way to much about others personal decisions. That is why thing are the way they are today. No one sees the other persons side. But it is ok no sleep lost we can continue to disagree. Life will go on.
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Post by iknownuthing on Jul 8, 2016 9:27:21 GMT -6
I never used the work pick, but private school can have kid legal attend their school from a larger area than public schools. Saying the State shows that there is no limit to how far the circle is. When you have a ability to get the best Student athelet out of a large area you have an advantage. I could have chosen for athletic reasons to send my 9 children to Kinder. I could have easily bought a house and commuted or worked from home. or I could have hired a driver and bought a van with the $600k I would have saved on tuition. You can can make that same choice in reverse or pick Jennings, Crowley or Iota if you wish with no tuition. But we both chose not to. You make way to much about others personal decisions. This is exactly the goal. To remove the right to a private education from the people. ONLY in a society where everyone has the same limited opportunity can all things become equal. Instead of letting the tide raise all boats, they want to dry dock the private sector. As I have posted elsewhere, this is not about athletic advantage, it an attack on all private education in this state.
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Post by gentsandpios on Jul 8, 2016 9:28:47 GMT -6
Btown, when practice starts in August I would like to invite you to spend the day in Crowley. You can go watch Crowley practice, then come watch ND practice. Then please tell me who has the better athletes. I know what your answer will be, so then explain to me why is one school consistently winning more than the other. If your comparison is only the starting varsity players then I agree that year in and year out Crowley has better athletes at many positions. But if you look at quantity of athletes on the field then ND had a clear advantage. Just look at one area, offensive line, Crowley has the 5 starters and possibly 2 backups that can legitimately step in and help if someone is hurt. ND has the 5 starters and 2 backups for every starter that can give quality replacement time. No knock on ND for this, it's great that they get that level of participation from their male athletes, CHS does not come close to that level in just practice bodies. That level of participation will take years to build just like it took at ND, we hope we get their some day.
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Post by iknownuthing on Jul 8, 2016 9:32:15 GMT -6
Not true, my friend. Private schools only have access to the students whose parents have the means as well as the desire to send them that school. Even if they can take advantage of financial assistance offered by the school, if they don't want to go to a private school, they don't have to. So, while theoretically it is LEGAL for a student in Monroe to fly on his private jet every morning to River Ridge to go to the "University" of John Curtis, in practical terms this is not going to happen. In addition, it's not only the free education offered at public and charter school that private schools have to compete with, it's other private schools as well. There is a very limited market for people willing to spend that kind of money when there is a free alternative available. Competition for a piece of that market if fierce. In Baton Rouge, there are no less than 9 schools that charge tuition, all competing for the same group of students. Then throw in the surrounding parishes who have private schools like Ascension, Iberville, East Feliciana and Pointe Coupee. The private schools in those parishes not only compete with the free public education, but also with each other and with the bigger private schools in BR. The belief that any of these schools have the ability to go out and simply pick players they want is not based in any kind of reality when you realize that there is even more competition for students between other private schools than there is between private schools and public schools. I never used the work pick, but private school can have kid legal attend their school from a larger area than public schools. Saying the State shows that there is no limit to how far the circle is. When you have a ability to get the best Student athelet out of a large area you have an advantage. The exact same thing can be said for Byrd, Warren Easton, Landry Walker, Zachary, W. Monroe, Many, Barbe, Lafayette High Acadiana, Breaux Bridge, Fountainbleu, Mandeville, Breaux BRidge, Neville and Sulphur High school. More to choose from from a larger population than the other schools in their districts.
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Post by iknownuthing on Jul 8, 2016 9:34:22 GMT -6
Btown, when practice starts in August I would like to invite you to spend the day in Crowley. You can go watch Crowley practice, then come watch ND practice. Then please tell me who has the better athletes. I know what your answer will be, so then explain to me why is one school consistently winning more than the other. If your comparison is only the starting varsity players then I agree that year in and year out Crowley has better athletes at many positions. But if you look at quantity of athletes on the field then ND had a clear advantage. Just look at one area, offensive line, Crowley has the 5 starters and possibly 2 backups that can legitimately step in and help if someone is hurt. ND has the 5 starters and 2 backups for every starter that can give quality replacement time. No knock on ND for this, it's great that they get that level of participation from their male athletes, CHS does not come close to that level in just practice bodies. That level of participation will take years to build just like it took at ND, we hope we get their some day. Does Notre Dame play more than 11 on offense and 11 on defense? Shame of those schools for not developing #2's and 3's.
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Post by btown on Jul 8, 2016 9:39:58 GMT -6
I could have chosen for athletic reasons to send my 9 children to Kinder. I could have easily bought a house and commuted or worked from home. or I could have hired a driver and bought a van with the $600k I would have saved on tuition. You can can make that same choice in reverse or pick Jennings, Crowley or Iota if you wish with no tuition. But we both chose not to. You make way to much about others personal decisions. This is exactly the goal. To remove the right to a private education from the people. ONLY in a society where everyone has the same limited opportunity can all things become equal. Instead of letting the tide raise all boats, they want to dry dock the private sector. As I have posted elsewhere, this is not about athletic advantage, it an attack on all private education in this state. Don't but words in mouth. My father was principal a private school. I have no issues with private schools. What I post is about athletic advantage and athelic advantage only. I am thankful that I have a top quality public school to send my kids to and do not have to work three jobs to send them to a private school. No I do not know what it is like not have quality public school to send my kid. But do not post why I support what I support.
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Post by gentsandpios on Jul 8, 2016 9:44:49 GMT -6
If your comparison is only the starting varsity players then I agree that year in and year out Crowley has better athletes at many positions. But if you look at quantity of athletes on the field then ND had a clear advantage. Just look at one area, offensive line, Crowley has the 5 starters and possibly 2 backups that can legitimately step in and help if someone is hurt. ND has the 5 starters and 2 backups for every starter that can give quality replacement time. No knock on ND for this, it's great that they get that level of participation from their male athletes, CHS does not come close to that level in just practice bodies. That level of participation will take years to build just like it took at ND, we hope we get their some day. Does Notre Dame play more than 11 on offense and 11 on defense? Shame of those schools for not developing #2's and 3's. I guess I was not clear when I said we don't yet have the numbers of athletes coming out, yet. We understand that takes time to develop the culture that makes young men want to come out and participate. We have taken big steps the last couple of years and hopefully we can continue that success. The coaches are working very hard to develop 2 and 3s but their material to work with are freshmen and sophmores right now. ND is working with Srs Jrs and Sophmores to develop their 2 and 3s. Off line is one position that usually not always lends itself to needing older students to be successful just due to fact that older kids are bigger and stronger, usually. In our case our 2s are all sopres and hopefully they get some 3s from the freshman but unrealistic to expect them to physically match up with most varsity d lines at 4A level.
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Post by indy on Jul 8, 2016 9:50:35 GMT -6
Coach Cook chooses to develop players over their 4 years at ND rather than play the best 11 at any givin time. This philosophy has worked well even at a small school with limited athletic abilities. This is also out or respect to the parents who choose to pay 8 large to send their kids to ND. At any givin game big or not 50 kids or more will get on the field. This is a big reason that 100 out of 180 boys at ND choose to play football. Many will never start in 4 years but feel just as a part of the team as the MVP's do. Our volleyball coach has an oppisite approach, she only plays those who she feels is the best. So out of 200 girls maybe 20-30 participate. They both are successful but coach cooks way is better for moral IMO.
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Post by Raven on Jul 8, 2016 9:55:48 GMT -6
Not true, my friend. Private schools only have access to the students whose parents have the means as well as the desire to send them that school. Even if they can take advantage of financial assistance offered by the school, if they don't want to go to a private school, they don't have to. So, while theoretically it is LEGAL for a student in Monroe to fly on his private jet every morning to River Ridge to go to the "University" of John Curtis, in practical terms this is not going to happen. In addition, it's not only the free education offered at public and charter school that private schools have to compete with, it's other private schools as well. There is a very limited market for people willing to spend that kind of money when there is a free alternative available. Competition for a piece of that market if fierce. In Baton Rouge, there are no less than 9 schools that charge tuition, all competing for the same group of students. Then throw in the surrounding parishes who have private schools like Ascension, Iberville, East Feliciana and Pointe Coupee. The private schools in those parishes not only compete with the free public education, but also with each other and with the bigger private schools in BR. The belief that any of these schools have the ability to go out and simply pick players they want is not based in any kind of reality when you realize that there is even more competition for students between other private schools than there is between private schools and public schools. I never used the work pick, but private school can have kid legal attend their school from a larger area than public schools. Saying the State shows that there is no limit to how far the circle is. When you have a ability to get the best Student athelet out of a large area you have an advantage. But even in that larger area, the number of students that are going to attend a private school is significantly less than the number of students available to the public schools in that same area. Again the larger area of available students only serves to level the playing field, not give private schools an advantage. You are assuming that the best student athletes are going to want to attend said private school. Why is that? I can see your point if we were talking about Caddo/Bossier parishes that only have 3 football playing private schools, of which only 2 place any kind emphasis on sports. With the population of those two parishes it's easy to see how a small private school could acquire the talent to compete with larger schools every year. In rural areas, especially in South Louisiana, there are many small private schools that compete with each other for the same students. Having a larger area to draw from only means that you have more schools to compete with for students. It gives no advantage whatsoever. I admit I have no explanation for John Curtis. They seem to be an anomaly. With the abundance of private schools in the NOLA area you'd think the talent level at each school would be spread out accordingly.
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Post by iknownuthing on Jul 8, 2016 9:59:45 GMT -6
Coach Cook chooses to develop players over their 4 years at ND rather than play the best 11 at any givin time. This philosophy has worked well even at a small school with limited athletic abilities. This is also out or respect to the parents who choose to pay 8 large to send their kids to ND. At any givin game big or not 50 kids or more will get on the field. This is a big reason that 100 out of 180 boys at ND choose to play football. Many will never start in 4 years but feel just as a part of the team as the MVP's do. Our volleyball coach has an oppisite approach, she only plays those who she feels is the best. So out of 200 girls maybe 20-30 participate. They both are successful but coach cooks way is better for moral IMO. This is also the difference at STM, they work as much on what's coming up as to what is starting and being part of something bigger is in the heart of every kid in the feeder system. It is also the vision of failure. St. Martinville during the deLaHoussaye years reloaded year after year similar to Neville. They even defeated John Curtis on the way to a state championship. Since his retirement, either the kids don't play or the parents send their kids to Breaux Bridge to play where that culture is fermented. In some cases Cataholic NI and Teurlings and the occasionally STM. Hopefully Coach Vince can work on and instill that culture again in St. Martinville. But if he leaves, it will not grow.
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Post by btown on Jul 8, 2016 10:46:43 GMT -6
I never used the work pick, but private school can have kid legal attend their school from a larger area than public schools. Saying the State shows that there is no limit to how far the circle is. When you have a ability to get the best Student athelet out of a large area you have an advantage. But even in that larger area, the number of students that are going to attend a private school is significantly less than the number of students available to the public schools in that same area. Again the larger area of available students only serves to level the playing field, not give private schools an advantage. You are assuming that the best student athletes are going to want to attend said private school. Why is that? I can see your point if we were talking about Caddo/Bossier parishes that only have 3 football playing private schools, of which only 2 place any kind emphasis on sports. With the population of those two parishes it's easy to see how a small private school could acquire the talent to compete with larger schools every year. In rural areas, especially in South Louisiana, there are many small private schools that compete with each other for the same students. Having a larger area to draw from only means that you have more schools to compete with for students. It gives no advantage whatsoever. I admit I have no explanation for John Curtis. They seem to be an anomaly. With the abundance of private schools in the NOLA area you'd think the talent level at each school would be spread out accordingly. Again we choose to disagree, no harm in that. We have spun the web 100 different ways on each side and no one side sees the other side. Hopefully when football starts we can get off these threads and go talk about football. No matter if you like is dislike the split the split is here and no one is going any where this year. Only good thing I can say is debating is fun when insults are not invovled.
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Post by Raven on Jul 8, 2016 11:58:02 GMT -6
But even in that larger area, the number of students that are going to attend a private school is significantly less than the number of students available to the public schools in that same area. Again the larger area of available students only serves to level the playing field, not give private schools an advantage. You are assuming that the best student athletes are going to want to attend said private school. Why is that? I can see your point if we were talking about Caddo/Bossier parishes that only have 3 football playing private schools, of which only 2 place any kind emphasis on sports. With the population of those two parishes it's easy to see how a small private school could acquire the talent to compete with larger schools every year. In rural areas, especially in South Louisiana, there are many small private schools that compete with each other for the same students. Having a larger area to draw from only means that you have more schools to compete with for students. It gives no advantage whatsoever. I admit I have no explanation for John Curtis. They seem to be an anomaly. With the abundance of private schools in the NOLA area you'd think the talent level at each school would be spread out accordingly. Again we choose to disagree, no harm in that. We have spun the web 100 different ways on each side and no one side sees the other side. Hopefully when football starts we can get off these threads and go talk about football. No matter if you like is dislike the split the split is here and no one is going any where this year. Only good thing I can say is debating is fun when insults are not invovled.I agree with you there. I understand that Southwest Louisiana is your main area and you tend to use Notre Dame a lot as an example of a private school that has the inherent advantages. How much of their success (in your opinion) is due to the perceived advantage rather than the fact that they have had an admittedly pretty darn good coach for the last 15+ years? I know the school started in the late 60s when many of the smaller Catholic high schools merged into one, and I don't know when Coach Cook started there, but how much success did they have before he showed up as opposed to what we see today after he has had nearly a generation to put his system in place and perfect it? From my perspective, the success of rural private schools has much more to do with the ability to attract and retain talented coaches. Schools like Catholic-PC or ACHS or even a school from a small urban area like Pope John Paul in Slidell or St. Thomas Aquinas in Hammond may have success every now and then, but their success quickly fades when their talented coaching staffs get poached by higher classification public schools who can offer more money and not require them to coach a secondary sport during their main sport's off-season. I realize that that happens at smaller rural public schools too, which is why I think we have more things in common than we do that makes us different.
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Post by eag on Jul 8, 2016 12:26:50 GMT -6
They all have the potential to be a quality "student" athlete, all of them with good teachers, coaches, and parents. But God didn't give all of the to be extra special athletes. When Davonte Bourque left Gueydan his first choice was to attend ND, they couldn't afford or chose not to pay the tuition so he went to Crowley where he excelled. He would have excelled anywhere with his talent. ND did just fine that year with a hard working 4 year student athlete whose only scholarship was TOPS! I will always give Notre Dame their praise. Smart, intelligent, hard working with good athletic ability will always out do someone with extra special athletic ability with no intelligence. Notre Dame has a lot of top student athlete. This is the side that the private schools supporters will not acknowledge. I will use Notre Dame as an example and it is only an example. Notre Dame has 5 quality student athletes come from the following schools Crowley High, Rayne, Scott, Iota, Eunice, Jennings, Welch, Elton, Laf. area , Kaplan, Gueydan, Midland. That is 60 kids that can legally go to Notre Dame, nothing wrong with parents putting their kids in Notre Dame. Then you go to a public school that can only get students from their attendance zones. Whether the zone is a zone or the parish. Are thing equal? I do know that Notre Dame does not get 5 kids from each area it is an example of what can happen that is well within the LHSAA rules. I guess this is what I don't follow. Even if ND gets 5 kids from each of those places, it does not ensure that ND has a better roster than Crowley, Eunice, etc. You could certainly say the evidence supports that ND has a better PROGRAM, though. I bet if you had Eunice's or Crowley's roster do everything exactly like ND for 4-5 years with the ND coaching staff, and had NDs roster do exactly what Eunice's or Crowley's did for the same time ( same percentage attendance, same weights, same film study, same gameplans, etc) that Eunice or Crowley would be beating ND's tail. The premise that private schools have unfair advantage due to lack of geographic barriers would only be proven IMO if private schools generally won with roster alone. There are a few schools that could, but very few. Most have lesser rosters, kid for kid, than the nearby public schools.
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Post by eag on Jul 8, 2016 12:31:58 GMT -6
Not true, my friend. Private schools only have access to the students whose parents have the means as well as the desire to send them that school. Even if they can take advantage of financial assistance offered by the school, if they don't want to go to a private school, they don't have to. So, while theoretically it is LEGAL for a student in Monroe to fly on his private jet every morning to River Ridge to go to the "University" of John Curtis, in practical terms this is not going to happen. In addition, it's not only the free education offered at public and charter school that private schools have to compete with, it's other private schools as well. There is a very limited market for people willing to spend that kind of money when there is a free alternative available. Competition for a piece of that market if fierce. In Baton Rouge, there are no less than 9 schools that charge tuition, all competing for the same group of students. Then throw in the surrounding parishes who have private schools like Ascension, Iberville, East Feliciana and Pointe Coupee. The private schools in those parishes not only compete with the free public education, but also with each other and with the bigger private schools in BR. The belief that any of these schools have the ability to go out and simply pick players they want is not based in any kind of reality when you realize that there is even more competition for students between other private schools than there is between private schools and public schools. I never used the work pick, but private school can have kid legal attend their school from a larger area than public schools. Saying the State shows that there is no limit to how far the circle is. When you have a ability to get the best Student athelet out of a large area you have an advantage.I'd be curious to see-- if we took every private school and evaluated the athletes within 50 miles of that school, I wonder how many of them would actually have the best athlete in the area on their roster. Then, I'd like to see how many of those are NOT kids from local, long-term feeder schools.
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Post by indy on Jul 8, 2016 12:35:05 GMT -6
Again we choose to disagree, no harm in that. We have spun the web 100 different ways on each side and no one side sees the other side. Hopefully when football starts we can get off these threads and go talk about football. No matter if you like is dislike the split the split is here and no one is going any where this year. Only good thing I can say is debating is fun when insults are not invovled.I agree with you there. I understand that Southwest Louisiana is your main area and you tend to use Notre Dame a lot as an example of a private school that has the inherent advantages. How much of their success (in your opinion) is due to the perceived advantage rather than the fact that they have had an admittedly pretty darn good coach for the last 15+ years? I know the school started in the late 60s when many of the smaller Catholic high schools merged into one, and I don't know when Coach Cook started there, but how much success did they have before he showed up as opposed to what we see today after he has had nearly a generation to put his system in place and perfect it? From my perspective, the success of rural private schools has much more to do with the ability to attract and retain talented coaches. Schools like Catholic-PC or ACHS or even a school from a small urban area like Pope John Paul in Slidell or St. Thomas Aquinas in Hammond may have success every now and then, but their success quickly fades when their talented coaching staffs get poached by higher classification public schools who can offer more money and not require them to coach a secondary sport during their main sport's off-season. I realize that that happens at smaller rural public schools too, which is why I think we have more things in common than we do that makes us different. Coach cook is a huge part of the success at ND. He is starting his 20th year at ND. Under him we have won 3 state titles. ND will play its 50th season this year. Prior to Cook we won two titles in the 70's. So a total of 5 in fifty years. Not bad but hardly dominant. Cook also coached at Crowley for 9 years, he won a title and two runner-ups in that time. It was Crowleys only times in their history they made the finals.
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Post by eag on Jul 8, 2016 12:41:37 GMT -6
Does Notre Dame play more than 11 on offense and 11 on defense? Shame of those schools for not developing #2's and 3's. I guess I was not clear when I said we don't yet have the numbers of athletes coming out, yet. We understand that takes time to develop the culture that makes young men want to come out and participate. We have taken big steps the last couple of years and hopefully we can continue that success. The coaches are working very hard to develop 2 and 3s but their material to work with are freshmen and sophmores right now. ND is working with Srs Jrs and Sophmores to develop their 2 and 3s. Off line is one position that usually not always lends itself to needing older students to be successful just due to fact that older kids are bigger and stronger, usually. In our case our 2s are all sopres and hopefully they get some 3s from the freshman but unrealistic to expect them to physically match up with most varsity d lines at 4A level. IMO this is the biggest factor in successful programs. Having a lot of good backups is mostly a function of having the kids want to be on the team. This is NOT a product of geographical footprint.
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