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Post by oldsouth on Apr 23, 2019 16:15:00 GMT -6
You make it sound like they have to list their 40 time on the application lol. The administration doesn’t know who the hell these kids are when they apply. Also, every private I know of is begging to get ANY students they can. The idea that they would say no to a kid because he isn’t good at sports is ludicrous. Well, we walk in different circles. Because private schools have the ability to select or reject any student, they have the ability to alter their enrollment for classification purposes. This is an incredible advantage over public schools who have no control over their student body. "Also, every private I know of is begging to get ANY students they can." Yea, and I bet this would include pulling kids from public schools.Do you really think that private schools are “rejecting” kids because they aren’t athletic enough or so they can stay in a lower classification? Seriously? Do you think the teachers take paycuts because of lower enrollment just so the football team wins more games?
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Post by oldsouth on Apr 23, 2019 16:17:43 GMT -6
First, FACTS doesn’t guarantee a significant amount of aid at all and it’s never more than 50% which usually leaves 4-5,000 in tuition left to pay. Second, how many kids do you think are getting athletic scholarships at these schools? It’s not like the privates are rolling in money and hand it out like candy. 99% of private school athletes don’t get any kind of financial help because they’re good at sports. The evangels and Curtises give a few more scholarships than most but they’re the exception by far. Even these 130 Catholic high scholarships aren’t anywhere near full rides. What would be the incentive for the schools to do that? Even a superstar Qb might get another 1,000 tickets sold in the course of a season. So he makes the school what, extra $6K that year? Why would they give him $10K off of tuition to make $6K? "First, FACTS doesn’t guarantee a significant amount of aid at all and it’s never more than 50% which usually leaves 4-5,000 in tuition left to pay." I definitely consider 50% a significant amount. You and I will disagree here. "Second, how many kids do you think are getting athletic scholarships at these schools?"None. I don't know of any private school in our state who offers athletic scholarships. I do know that plenty of private schools offer multiple scholarships as well as work study programs, though. Champions of the private school usually trot out tuition costs without also mentioning that tuition can be covered by applying for financial aid or working in a work study program. "What would be the incentive for the schools to do that?"To win football games, of course. The ability to select, as well as reject students allows private schools the ability to limit enrollment for classification purposes. Public schools cannot do this. They must play in whichever classification their attendance affords them. Do you really think that winning football games is more important than the financial stability and academic viability of the school?
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Post by Sixpack on Apr 23, 2019 18:18:18 GMT -6
All private schools have LHSAA assigned school zones for athletic purposes.
If you think the LHSAA's private school open border and sit out rule was not the determining factor in allowing Louisiana's best private school football programs to build their powerhouse programs and dominate public schools athletically then imagine a scenario where, from day one, those private schools were NEVER allowed to use a single player who lived outside their assigned LHSAA zone.
Now tell me how many state championships those private programs, using only players from within their own LHSAA assigned zone, would have won over the best public school athletic programs.
The answer is very few.
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Post by thedomeranger on Apr 23, 2019 18:21:35 GMT -6
The problem is “private” schools get lumped together and so do “public” schools. The reality is there are vast differences in both across the state. Acadia Parish school Principals have the right to accept or deny enrollment at their discretion. This is what you and others repeatedly say Private schools can do. School Boards are continually having relaxed rules regarding zones across the state now. If Coach Cook took his staff and went to Crowley High in a few years he could build a dynasty. He could get the best of the best in the Parish, and work with the Principal to keep the enrollment in 3A. Whereas at ND he has to take who can afford the tuition. Where does the advantage lie? The advantage lies in the fact that private schools can select all of their students from anywhere at anytime. If you want to stick to your guns with ND, that's fine but you are being short sided. The tuition argument just doesn't fly with me. That is an excuse. Fact is, most private schools offer need-based financial aid and work study to students to alleviate this issue. Catholic High in Baton Rouge has over 130 different scholarships they offer their students. Notre Dame offers financial aid using the FACTS system. This eliminates the burden of tuition and furthers the argument that private schools can go and get any student athlete they wish. Again, how is this not an advantage? The only tuition assistance a private school can offer a potential student athlete is need based tuition subsidies and those must be offered to all students with the same criteria being applied. Additionally, their are a large number of schools now that function as public schools of choice, magnet school, charter schools, and laboratory schools that are allowed to select students to participate in certain programs. A number of those schools have been dominant in athletics for some time now. Some are select schools, some are not. I took some time a while back and compiled a list of schools who won state titles since 2000 before the split. More publics than privates won though it was close to even. Take Evangel and John Curtis out and it was overwhelmingly publics. Should they completely separate? I don't know. But the current setup is not good for either side.
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Post by brprepfan on Apr 23, 2019 19:59:04 GMT -6
This topic comes up every few months, I know because I did it a year or so back.
All of the following is in the Baton Rouge area.
People on both sides are entrenched in what they believe. I know recruiting goes on from private schools, charter schools, magnet schools, and any school that wants to win in athletics. I see it happen every year. I have watched many of my players be recruited by private schools, public schools that are not in their attendance zone, charter schools, schools from different parishes, and magnet schools.
This is from what I have seen with my own eyes. My school is a small school and every few years we will have Division I talent in basketball. Every time, since 2006, which is what I have personally seen, those players are recruited. It makes sense. They are recruited to play college and yes, they are recruited to play high school. Some times they stay at local school, sometimes they go private school, and sometimes they go to magnet schools or schools outside of their district.
I don't fault the student, parent, coach or anyone. It is just the way it is. I have 3 players that I coached this year that will be good high school players in their career and possibly could play in college. They all play AAU. They have played in Jackson, MS, Little Rock AR, Houston TX, San Antonio TX, and many cities in Louisiana. This has been going on since March of this year. Coaches from high schools are there to watch them play. Kids that are 12, 13, and 14 years old.
My son played AAU basketball and for his local high school team. He graduated high school, a few years ago. He was talked to by other programs when he was heading into high school. He chose to play for his local high school. That's just the way it goes. His cousin was talked to also and he chose to go to U High instead of his local high school. His sister went to Mckinley, she was not an athlete, but she was in the gifted program. U High had a lot more success than my son's local high school. Was that because of recruiting? I would say yes.
Do I think a split should take place. Hard for me to say. It has watered down competition in all sports. I know I don't like 32 team playoffs and sub .500 teams making the playoffs. Maybe that is me sounding old and not liking change.
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Post by chalmetteowl on Apr 23, 2019 20:25:28 GMT -6
"First, FACTS doesn’t guarantee a significant amount of aid at all and it’s never more than 50% which usually leaves 4-5,000 in tuition left to pay." I definitely consider 50% a significant amount. You and I will disagree here. "Second, how many kids do you think are getting athletic scholarships at these schools?"None. I don't know of any private school in our state who offers athletic scholarships. I do know that plenty of private schools offer multiple scholarships as well as work study programs, though. Champions of the private school usually trot out tuition costs without also mentioning that tuition can be covered by applying for financial aid or working in a work study program. "What would be the incentive for the schools to do that?"To win football games, of course. The ability to select, as well as reject students allows private schools the ability to limit enrollment for classification purposes. Public schools cannot do this. They must play in whichever classification their attendance affords them. Do you really think that winning football games is more important than the financial stability and academic viability of the school? this. The #1 reason we have these problems with select and nonselect is because select schools are ran like businesses, and surprise, good football and other sports are good for business. Living in the New Orleans area, I see ads for lots of different schools in websites, billboards, etc. A lot of them prominently feature athletes. The LHSAA has rules on the books about using athletic imagery on school advertisements outside of that school's attendance zone. That should mean no more De La Salle billboards in Metairie, no more Brother Martin sponsoring Friday Night Football, no more Curtis players in commercials. BM got in trouble over this when their coaches showed up at the camp in Slidell. How many advertisements have I ever seen for a nonselect school? Little to none. St. Charles Parish has a billboard touting their AAA system when you enter the parish. Competitive pressure is just more in select schools. In other words, they want to win more. Which is okay. You get what you pay for.
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Post by iamray on Apr 23, 2019 20:41:57 GMT -6
Well, we walk in different circles. Because private schools have the ability to select or reject any student, they have the ability to alter their enrollment for classification purposes. This is an incredible advantage over public schools who have no control over their student body. "Also, every private I know of is begging to get ANY students they can." Yea, and I bet this would include pulling kids from public schools.Do you really think that private schools are “rejecting” kids because they aren’t athletic enough or so they can stay in a lower classification? Seriously? Do you think the teachers take paycuts because of lower enrollment just so the football team wins more games? No. I'm not saying any of that. I am saying that private schools have the ability to alter their enrollment by selecting their choice of students. You don't need a bevy of students to move up or down in classification, either. Whether or not they exercise this advantage, they do have the ability to pull it off and it would be well within the rules. This is why it is an advantage for them.
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Post by iamray on Apr 23, 2019 20:48:33 GMT -6
"First, FACTS doesn’t guarantee a significant amount of aid at all and it’s never more than 50% which usually leaves 4-5,000 in tuition left to pay." I definitely consider 50% a significant amount. You and I will disagree here. "Second, how many kids do you think are getting athletic scholarships at these schools?"None. I don't know of any private school in our state who offers athletic scholarships. I do know that plenty of private schools offer multiple scholarships as well as work study programs, though. Champions of the private school usually trot out tuition costs without also mentioning that tuition can be covered by applying for financial aid or working in a work study program. "What would be the incentive for the schools to do that?"To win football games, of course. The ability to select, as well as reject students allows private schools the ability to limit enrollment for classification purposes. Public schools cannot do this. They must play in whichever classification their attendance affords them. Do you really think that winning football games is more important than the financial stability and academic viability of the school? Of course not. I have never said as such. I am saying that private schools might see an athletic advantage in taming or increasing enrollment to suit a specified classification. Academic performance is far more important that any sport, but privates can control academic performance to a degree as well. Once again, the ability to choose their student body allows them to accept students who meet certain academic prerequisites. This is not the case for public schools. Public schools must take any student within their zone regardless of their past academic performance. To be perfectly clear, athletics should never supersede academics in school. I would never advocate for such. If you have taken that impression, you're mistaken. I am only describing the advantages that I believe private schools have over public schools.
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Post by iamray on Apr 23, 2019 20:50:52 GMT -6
The advantage lies in the fact that private schools can select all of their students from anywhere at anytime. If you want to stick to your guns with ND, that's fine but you are being short sided. The tuition argument just doesn't fly with me. That is an excuse. Fact is, most private schools offer need-based financial aid and work study to students to alleviate this issue. Catholic High in Baton Rouge has over 130 different scholarships they offer their students. Notre Dame offers financial aid using the FACTS system. This eliminates the burden of tuition and furthers the argument that private schools can go and get any student athlete they wish. Again, how is this not an advantage? The only tuition assistance a private school can offer a potential student athlete is need based tuition subsidies and those must be offered to all students with the same criteria being applied. Additionally, their are a large number of schools now that function as public schools of choice, magnet school, charter schools, and laboratory schools that are allowed to select students to participate in certain programs. A number of those schools have been dominant in athletics for some time now. Some are select schools, some are not. I took some time a while back and compiled a list of schools who won state titles since 2000 before the split. More publics than privates won though it was close to even. Take Evangel and John Curtis out and it was overwhelmingly publics. Should they completely separate? I don't know. But the current setup is not good for either side. I agree. The current gimmick is terrible and has watered down the luster of winning a state title. I like the play up rule. I think that was the best route to go with. JC and Evangel are probably the reason for the change to begin with. Of course, we cannot forget Winnfield, either. This really all started with them.
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Post by iamray on Apr 23, 2019 20:53:18 GMT -6
This topic comes up every few months, I know because I did it a year or so back. All of the following is in the Baton Rouge area. People on both sides are entrenched in what they believe. I know recruiting goes on from private schools, charter schools, magnet schools, and any school that wants to win in athletics. I see it happen every year. I have watched many of my players be recruited by private schools, public schools that are not in their attendance zone, charter schools, schools from different parishes, and magnet schools. This is from what I have seen with my own eyes. My school is a small school and every few years we will have Division I talent in basketball. Every time, since 2006, which is what I have personally seen, those players are recruited. It makes sense. They are recruited to play college and yes, they are recruited to play high school. Some times they stay at local school, sometimes they go private school, and sometimes they go to magnet schools or schools outside of their district. I don't fault the student, parent, coach or anyone. It is just the way it is. I have 3 players that I coached this year that will be good high school players in their career and possibly could play in college. They all play AAU. They have played in Jackson, MS, Little Rock AR, Houston TX, San Antonio TX, and many cities in Louisiana. This has been going on since March of this year. Coaches from high schools are there to watch them play. Kids that are 12, 13, and 14 years old. My son played AAU basketball and for his local high school team. He graduated high school, a few years ago. He was talked to by other programs when he was heading into high school. He chose to play for his local high school. That's just the way it goes. His cousin was talked to also and he chose to go to U High instead of his local high school. His sister went to Mckinley, she was not an athlete, but she was in the gifted program. U High had a lot more success than my son's local high school. Was that because of recruiting? I would say yes. Do I think a split should take place. Hard for me to say. It has watered down competition in all sports. I know I don't like 32 team playoffs and sub .500 teams making the playoffs. Maybe that is me sounding old and not liking change. Nice point. I agree. I feel that the split has greatly marginalized winning a state title. I see a lot of this recruiting in basketball as well.
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Post by iamray on Apr 23, 2019 20:56:43 GMT -6
Do you really think that winning football games is more important than the financial stability and academic viability of the school? this. The #1 reason we have these problems with select and nonselect is because select schools are ran like businesses, and surprise, good football and other sports are good for business. Living in the New Orleans area, I see ads for lots of different schools in websites, billboards, etc. A lot of them prominently feature athletes. The LHSAA has rules on the books about using athletic imagery on school advertisements outside of that school's attendance zone. That should mean no more De La Salle billboards in Metairie, no more Brother Martin sponsoring Friday Night Football, no more Curtis players in commercials. BM got in trouble over this when their coaches showed up at the camp in Slidell. How many advertisements have I ever seen for a nonselect school? Little to none. St. Charles Parish has a billboard touting their AAA system when you enter the parish. Competitive pressure is just more in select schools. In other words, they want to win more. Which is okay. You get what you pay for. This is correct to a degree. I would argue that competitive pressure is equal or more prevalant in some public programs, but overall select schools probably care more based on what you are saying. My point for this thread was to describe the advantages that I feel private programs hold over public programs. These examples further those points. Good post.
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Post by oldsouth on Apr 23, 2019 22:53:26 GMT -6
Do you really think that private schools are “rejecting” kids because they aren’t athletic enough or so they can stay in a lower classification? Seriously? Do you think the teachers take paycuts because of lower enrollment just so the football team wins more games? No. I'm not saying any of that. I am saying that private schools have the ability to alter their enrollment by selecting their choice of students. You don't need a bevy of students to move up or down in classification, either. Whether or not they exercise this advantage, they do have the ability to pull it off and it would be well within the rules. This is why it is an advantage for them. Alter their enrollment? You mean by accepting less students than they could so that they can play down a classification? Maybe I’m misunderstanding what you mean here because even if they told 5 students no so they stayed in 4A, 3A etc. it would cost the school $50,000 a year to do so. You must mean something else by “alter their enrollment”.
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Post by chalmetteowl on Apr 24, 2019 0:48:19 GMT -6
No. I'm not saying any of that. I am saying that private schools have the ability to alter their enrollment by selecting their choice of students. You don't need a bevy of students to move up or down in classification, either. Whether or not they exercise this advantage, they do have the ability to pull it off and it would be well within the rules. This is why it is an advantage for them. Alter their enrollment? You mean by accepting less students than they could so that they can play down a classification? Maybe I’m misunderstanding what you mean here because even if they told 5 students no so they stayed in 4A, 3A etc. it would cost the school $50,000 a year to do so. You must mean something else by “alter their enrollment”. to be fair, nonselect schools can alter their numbers too to stay in a classification... A school board might alter district lines, or open another school
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Post by Raven on Apr 24, 2019 8:36:16 GMT -6
Wow, I miss one day and a whole 3-page list of replies about the split. I must be slipping. To touch on a few points from various posters (my apologies for not remembering who said what)... Regarding Dunham or John Curtis being able to pull students from a populations of 500.000 + people: Technically this is true. Being located in a major metropolitan area does mean a school has access to more students. However, you have to look at the entire picture. If they were the only private school in that area, then truly they would have an unbeatable advantage. Let's take Dunham first. If you take East Baton Rouge Parish and the 8 surrounding parishes you get a population of 803,525 (using data from the 2010 census) All are within easy driving distance to the Dunham school especially for parents who may live outside the parish but drive there every day for work. If they were the only school in EBR then they would easily have an enrollment that would place them in the 5A ranks. However, there are 14 other private schools in the Baton Rouge area that are also competing for the same students. Using last year's enrollment numbers, there are 5,916 students enrolled in private schools that have football teams in the Baton Rouge metro area. I'm only using the football-playing schools to stay within Ray's initial premise. The vast majority of those students attend the only 5A private school in the area which is Catholic of BR. They have the most students, and have the alumni with largest cash base, which is why they are able to offer so many scholarships. They already play in the state's largest classification and before the split I don't know if they had ever won a state title in football. But let's get back to Dunham. Dunham's enrollment has grown steadily since 1998 from 215 students to their current enrollment of 298. During that time they also moved from the 1A ranks into 2A. The cutoff for 2A in the last reclassification was 417. The cutoff for 1A was 249. If Dunham really wanted to control their enrollment for athletic purposes, it would be much easier to win championships in 1A so they would have needed to reduce their student body by almost 50 kids. And even then there is no guarantee since the cutoff numbers for classification change every 2 years. It would be nearly impossible for a private school to say no to tuition-paying students just to keep their enrollment in the classification they want. Schools like Episcopal and Parkview Baptist and U-High are all competing for the same students and at the same time competing for students from outside the parish with the 6 or 7 rural private schools in the surrounding areas. And those schools are competing against each other as well as the local public schools to get kids to go there. Then throw in the public schools with successful magnet programs that are targeted at getting some of those private school kids back into the public school system and you've got another bloc of competing schools for those students. It's not nearly as simple as many people seem to think it is when it comes to "selecting" the students that go to your school. With all the other options out there, you can still only choose from the kids that actually submit an application to go there. And no application I ever saw has asked a potential student if they know how to throw a spiral. Regarding financial aid: This one I know was mentioned by Ray, so I will try to address his questions here. Many private schools do offer tuition assistance and scholarships. This is true. But how does that help keep their enrollment down? If they really wanted to control their enrollment to stay in a lower classification you'd think they would not want as many kids attending. Also, even if a student is receiving financial assistance, that money isn't coming from the school. The school is still receiving the full amount of tuition for that student through the scholarship. It is generally being paid either by a foundation or booster club that has set up additional funds to help students who want to attend that school. now I agree this would be advantage too if those scholarships and aid were awarded only to athletes or if there were stipulations that the students receiving them were required to participate in a sport in order to get it. But that is not the case, and would be a serious violation of LHSAA rules. All financial aid offered by any private school has to be available to ALL potential and current students and cannot be given on the basis of athletics or athletic talent. Then we come to the question of what exactly is financial assistance. I was raised by a single mom who did not make enough money to send me St. John. My tuition was paid for by my grandparents. Should that have been considered financial aid? Or an athletic scholarship since I played football and was on the track team? The same could be true of any student who is receiving financial assistance to attend a private school. It doesn't matter where the money is coming from, the tuition still has to get paid. In small, rural private schools there is simply not the same access to funds that Catholic-BR has to offer 130 scholarships. Heck, we barely have that many students in 9-12. Even with financial aid available, there is only so much to go around. So yes, in my opinion tuition costs do still play a large role in how many students are able to attend a private school. Public schools required to accept every student: This is also a true and valid point that is made by public school supporters. While some private schools do accept students with learning and/or physical disabilities, they are not required to. These student's must be accepted at their local public school and may not be eligible to participate in athletics due to their disability. That would lead to public schools having enrollments higher (in general) than their private school counterparts who do no admit these student. I have said previously, and still believe that there is a simple solution to this issue. Take the percentage of special needs students statewide and add that percentage to the enrollment figures for all private schools. That would boost their numbers to be in line with similar sized public schools and would push some private schools into the next higher classification while pushing some public schools down. For example, if it was determined that 14% of Louisiana's high school students were special needs, then increase the enrollment number for all private schools by 14%. Take a school like Episcopal for example. They have a current enrollment of 389. 14% of that is 54. Add 54 to 389 and you get 443, which moves them up from 2A to 3A. If 3 or 4 other private schools move from 2A to 3A that could push the public schools that are on the bubble like St. James and Caldwell and Mansfield down to 2A. Would it solve all of the competition problems? No, but it is a place to start. Success metrics such as those used in the Indiana system that publicgradprivatedad has brought up before would help as well. I would even go as far as implementing a system similar to what the NCAA uses and factor in the size of a school's athletic budget compared to similar schools to modify their enrollment numbers up or down to create even more parity. I think implementing a combination of those things would be a way to bring the association back together again. Or at least create a starting point to get schools talking about the possibility. I'm sure I missed some other valid points that were made in previous comments, so if I didn't mention everything speak up.
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Post by fanman on Apr 24, 2019 10:39:18 GMT -6
Wow, I miss one day and a whole 3-page list of replies about the split. I must be slipping. To touch on a few points from various posters (my apologies for not remembering who said what)... Regarding Dunham or John Curtis being able to pull students from a populations of 500.000 + people: Technically this is true. Being located in a major metropolitan area does mean a school has access to more students. However, you have to look at the entire picture. If they were the only private school in that area, then truly they would have an unbeatable advantage. Let's take Dunham first. If you take East Baton Rouge Parish and the 8 surrounding parishes you get a population of 803,525 (using data from the 2010 census) All are within easy driving distance to the Dunham school especially for parents who may live outside the parish but drive there every day for work. If they were the only school in EBR then they would easily have an enrollment that would place them in the 5A ranks. However, there are 14 other private schools in the Baton Rouge area that are also competing for the same students. Using last year's enrollment numbers, there are 5,916 students enrolled in private schools that have football teams in the Baton Rouge metro area. I'm only using the football-playing schools to stay within Ray's initial premise. The vast majority of those students attend the only 5A private school in the area which is Catholic of BR. They have the most students, and have the alumni with largest cash base, which is why they are able to offer so many scholarships. They already play in the state's largest classification and before the split I don't know if they had ever won a state title in football. But let's get back to Dunham. Dunham's enrollment has grown steadily since 1998 from 215 students to their current enrollment of 298. During that time they also moved from the 1A ranks into 2A. The cutoff for 2A in the last reclassification was 417. The cutoff for 1A was 249. If Dunham really wanted to control their enrollment for athletic purposes, it would be much easier to win championships in 1A so they would have needed to reduce their student body by almost 50 kids. And even then there is no guarantee since the cutoff numbers for classification change every 2 years. It would be nearly impossible for a private school to say no to tuition-paying students just to keep their enrollment in the classification they want. Schools like Episcopal and Parkview Baptist and U-High are all competing for the same students and at the same time competing for students from outside the parish with the 6 or 7 rural private schools in the surrounding areas. And those schools are competing against each other as well as the local public schools to get kids to go there. Then throw in the public schools with successful magnet programs that are targeted at getting some of those private school kids back into the public school system and you've got another bloc of competing schools for those students. It's not nearly as simple as many people seem to think it is when it comes to "selecting" the students that go to your school. With all the other options out there, you can still only choose from the kids that actually submit an application to go there. And no application I ever saw has asked a potential student if they know how to throw a spiral. Regarding financial aid: This one I know was mentioned by Ray, so I will try to address his questions here. Many private schools do offer tuition assistance and scholarships. This is true. But how does that help keep their enrollment down? If they really wanted to control their enrollment to stay in a lower classification you'd think they would not want as many kids attending. Also, even if a student is receiving financial assistance, that money isn't coming from the school. The school is still receiving the full amount of tuition for that student through the scholarship. It is generally being paid either by a foundation or booster club that has set up additional funds to help students who want to attend that school. now I agree this would be advantage too if those scholarships and aid were awarded only to athletes or if there were stipulations that the students receiving them were required to participate in a sport in order to get it. But that is not the case, and would be a serious violation of LHSAA rules. All financial aid offered by any private school has to be available to ALL potential and current students and cannot be given on the basis of athletics or athletic talent. Then we come to the question of what exactly is financial assistance. I was raised by a single mom who did not make enough money to send me St. John. My tuition was paid for by my grandparents. Should that have been considered financial aid? Or an athletic scholarship since I played football and was on the track team? The same could be true of any student who is receiving financial assistance to attend a private school. It doesn't matter where the money is coming from, the tuition still has to get paid. In small, rural private schools there is simply not the same access to funds that Catholic-BR has to offer 130 scholarships. Heck, we barely have that many students in 9-12. Even with financial aid available, there is only so much to go around. So yes, in my opinion tuition costs do still play a large role in how many students are able to attend a private school. Public schools required to accept every student: This is also a true and valid point that is made by public school supporters. While some private schools do accept students with learning and/or physical disabilities, they are not required to. These student's must be accepted at their local public school and may not be eligible to participate in athletics due to their disability. That would lead to public schools having enrollments higher (in general) than their private school counterparts who do no admit these student. I have said previously, and still believe that there is a simple solution to this issue. Take the percentage of special needs students statewide and add that percentage to the enrollment figures for all private schools. That would boost their numbers to be in line with similar sized public schools and would push some private schools into the next higher classification while pushing some public schools down. For example, if it was determined that 14% of Louisiana's high school students were special needs, then increase the enrollment number for all private schools by 14%. Take a school like Episcopal for example. They have a current enrollment of 389. 14% of that is 54. Add 54 to 389 and you get 443, which moves them up from 2A to 3A. If 3 or 4 other private schools move from 2A to 3A that could push the public schools that are on the bubble like St. James and Caldwell and Mansfield down to 2A. Would it solve all of the competition problems? No, but it is a place to start. Success metrics such as those used in the Indiana system that publicgradprivatedad has brought up before would help as well. I would even go as far as implementing a system similar to what the NCAA uses and factor in the size of a school's athletic budget compared to similar schools to modify their enrollment numbers up or down to create even more parity. I think implementing a combination of those things would be a way to bring the association back together again. Or at least create a starting point to get schools talking about the possibility. I'm sure I missed some other valid points that were made in previous comments, so if I didn't mention everything speak up.
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Post by fanman on Apr 24, 2019 10:42:04 GMT -6
I surely will be glad when spring practice any practice for that matter starts and the focus hopefully will change to actual football and stop all this crap.
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Post by indy on Apr 25, 2019 4:00:27 GMT -6
I surely will be glad when spring practice any practice for that matter starts and the focus hopefully will change to actual football and stop all this crap. Hang in, we will have football but it will still be in a crappy system lead by self serving s
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Post by pinion on Apr 25, 2019 15:57:35 GMT -6
I've been inspired by another poster to lay out why I believe private school football programs have two substantial advantages over public school football programs. Let's try and keep this civil. My opinion is based on two items - boundaries and selection. Private schools are not limited to attendance zones or "boundaries" to select their students. Simply put, a private school has the ability to admit students from well beyond any attendance zone applied to a public school. This allows private school programs to have better access to more students as opposed to a public school who must take any student from its zone. I am not so naive to believe that there are no out of zone students at public schools, but it is against the rules, whereas private schools are allowed to select students from almost anywhere. Finally, private schools have the ability to select their student body. Public schools cannot do this. Public schools must take students from their zone; they do not have the advantage of being able to cherry pick their student bodies. This, coupled with the advantage of having no boundaries, gives private school programs a substantial advantage over public school programs. I'll counter your points. 1: Some public schools draw students from their entire parish. While a public school may very draw from 15 parishes and 2 states, drawing kids from outside the immediate attendance zone is drawing kids from outside the immediate attendance zone. You either draw kids from the immediate attendance zone or you don't. Period. I realize that there are those from the public sector that wish to convolute the issue, but the bottom line is you either do or you don't. On that same line, it's no fault of the private school that a public school sets out an attendance zone; they do that to themselves. Regardless of why (and I do get it), they still set those rules up themselves. It's like stabbing yourself in the leg and then complaining about being stabbed in the leg. 2: Private schools have the ability to select their students. Nobody is denying that. Some public schools do it and nobody really bats an eye about it. I mean, we may talk a little smack about it on this board, but the fact remains that there are schools that pull students from other areas and they are forced into the "select" category. On that same point, what difference does that really make? Having a special needs family member, I was okay with a private school advising my brother to place her in a public school where her needs could be better met. The school said they would happily take her and take a check every month for tuition but that they felt like her needs would be better met at a school where they were better equipped to educate her. The public school could not legally turn my niece away, but it's not like the private school was going to gain an advantage by having her there. I guess if you lack reasoning you may counter that 200 of these special needs kids are going to push the school up in classification and maybe they would. So to address that, why not just NOT count the special needs kids for athletic purposes? That seems simple enough. Here's how I think private schools are at a disadvantage: 1: They have to make money and a public school just chills out and that taxpayers, private school parents included, have to pay in. No matter if the system is working or not or how terrible the schools are, they have to pay in to it. I realize that money to fund public schools may or may not be used to fund the sports programs, but again, that's something that the public schools are putting into place. Again with the stabbing your own leg thing. 2: Anytime a kid that plays sports shows up at a private school, it is scrutinized to no end and whatever the cost of dealing with that is (man hours, because labor ain't free) the school has to fund it. At a public school, if anyone even bothers to question it, the endless supply of tax money pays for whatever it takes to defend that kid coming there. And before this goes too far, do understand that I believe the private schools should form their own league and stay as far away as they can from the public schools. It blows my mind that the private schools would even consider staying in a league that is 100% against them. It just makes no sense. But politics in Louisiana being what it is kind of explains it. That said, the only reasons I can come up with as to why the LHSAA won't just toss out the private schools is that they like crapping on people while taking their money. That or they know if a private school league were to be formed that they'd get a real life lesson in what recruiting actually looks like.
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Post by chalmetteowl on Apr 25, 2019 19:52:42 GMT -6
I've been inspired by another poster to lay out why I believe private school football programs have two substantial advantages over public school football programs. Let's try and keep this civil. My opinion is based on two items - boundaries and selection. Private schools are not limited to attendance zones or "boundaries" to select their students. Simply put, a private school has the ability to admit students from well beyond any attendance zone applied to a public school. This allows private school programs to have better access to more students as opposed to a public school who must take any student from its zone. I am not so naive to believe that there are no out of zone students at public schools, but it is against the rules, whereas private schools are allowed to select students from almost anywhere. Finally, private schools have the ability to select their student body. Public schools cannot do this. Public schools must take students from their zone; they do not have the advantage of being able to cherry pick their student bodies. This, coupled with the advantage of having no boundaries, gives private school programs a substantial advantage over public school programs. I'll counter your points. 1: Some public schools draw students from their entire parish. While a public school may very draw from 15 parishes and 2 states, drawing kids from outside the immediate attendance zone is drawing kids from outside the immediate attendance zone. You either draw kids from the immediate attendance zone or you don't. Period. I realize that there are those from the public sector that wish to convolute the issue, but the bottom line is you either do or you don't. On that same line, it's no fault of the private school that a public school sets out an attendance zone; they do that to themselves. Regardless of why (and I do get it), they still set those rules up themselves. It's like stabbing yourself in the leg and then complaining about being stabbed in the leg. 2: Private schools have the ability to select their students. Nobody is denying that. Some public schools do it and nobody really bats an eye about it. I mean, we may talk a little smack about it on this board, but the fact remains that there are schools that pull students from other areas and they are forced into the "select" category. On that same point, what difference does that really make? Having a special needs family member, I was okay with a private school advising my brother to place her in a public school where her needs could be better met. The school said they would happily take her and take a check every month for tuition but that they felt like her needs would be better met at a school where they were better equipped to educate her. The public school could not legally turn my niece away, but it's not like the private school was going to gain an advantage by having her there. I guess if you lack reasoning you may counter that 200 of these special needs kids are going to push the school up in classification and maybe they would. So to address that, why not just NOT count the special needs kids for athletic purposes? That seems simple enough. Here's how I think private schools are at a disadvantage: 1: They have to make money and a public school just chills out and that taxpayers, private school parents included, have to pay in. No matter if the system is working or not or how terrible the schools are, they have to pay in to it. I realize that money to fund public schools may or may not be used to fund the sports programs, but again, that's something that the public schools are putting into place. Again with the stabbing your own leg thing. 2: Anytime a kid that plays sports shows up at a private school, it is scrutinized to no end and whatever the cost of dealing with that is (man hours, because labor ain't free) the school has to fund it. At a public school, if anyone even bothers to question it, the endless supply of tax money pays for whatever it takes to defend that kid coming there. And before this goes too far, do understand that I believe the private schools should form their own league and stay as far away as they can from the public schools. It blows my mind that the private schools would even consider staying in a league that is 100% against them. It just makes no sense. But politics in Louisiana being what it is kind of explains it. That said, the only reasons I can come up with as to why the LHSAA won't just toss out the private schools is that they like crapping on people while taking their money. That or they know if a private school league were to be formed that they'd get a real life lesson in what recruiting actually looks like. about the special needs kids, it's a loophole. Schools absolutely will misclassify kids as such to move a class down. Whatever you think schools wouldn't do, they will.
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Post by Southplaq on Apr 25, 2019 21:27:05 GMT -6
"If you want to start some poop, then make a post about the split"
….Southplaq
I'm working on the lyrics to this song
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Post by fanman on Apr 26, 2019 4:25:06 GMT -6
Part of the reason I come to this site is to see what you are going today next. You are something else.
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Post by thedomeranger on Apr 26, 2019 7:40:29 GMT -6
"If you want to start some poop, then make a post about the split" ….Southplaq I'm working on the lyrics to this song Country or Rap? Seems one of those would be the logical choice for a lyric driven song. Outside chance a Rock Power Ballad?
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Post by iamray on Apr 26, 2019 9:48:07 GMT -6
I've been inspired by another poster to lay out why I believe private school football programs have two substantial advantages over public school football programs. Let's try and keep this civil. My opinion is based on two items - boundaries and selection. Private schools are not limited to attendance zones or "boundaries" to select their students. Simply put, a private school has the ability to admit students from well beyond any attendance zone applied to a public school. This allows private school programs to have better access to more students as opposed to a public school who must take any student from its zone. I am not so naive to believe that there are no out of zone students at public schools, but it is against the rules, whereas private schools are allowed to select students from almost anywhere. Finally, private schools have the ability to select their student body. Public schools cannot do this. Public schools must take students from their zone; they do not have the advantage of being able to cherry pick their student bodies. This, coupled with the advantage of having no boundaries, gives private school programs a substantial advantage over public school programs. I'll counter your points. 1: Some public schools draw students from their entire parish. While a public school may very draw from 15 parishes and 2 states, drawing kids from outside the immediate attendance zone is drawing kids from outside the immediate attendance zone. You either draw kids from the immediate attendance zone or you don't. Period. I realize that there are those from the public sector that wish to convolute the issue, but the bottom line is you either do or you don't. On that same line, it's no fault of the private school that a public school sets out an attendance zone; they do that to themselves. Regardless of why (and I do get it), they still set those rules up themselves. It's like stabbing yourself in the leg and then complaining about being stabbed in the leg. 2: Private schools have the ability to select their students. Nobody is denying that. Some public schools do it and nobody really bats an eye about it. I mean, we may talk a little smack about it on this board, but the fact remains that there are schools that pull students from other areas and they are forced into the "select" category. On that same point, what difference does that really make? Having a special needs family member, I was okay with a private school advising my brother to place her in a public school where her needs could be better met. The school said they would happily take her and take a check every month for tuition but that they felt like her needs would be better met at a school where they were better equipped to educate her. The public school could not legally turn my niece away, but it's not like the private school was going to gain an advantage by having her there. I guess if you lack reasoning you may counter that 200 of these special needs kids are going to push the school up in classification and maybe they would. So to address that, why not just NOT count the special needs kids for athletic purposes? That seems simple enough. Here's how I think private schools are at a disadvantage: 1: They have to make money and a public school just chills out and that taxpayers, private school parents included, have to pay in. No matter if the system is working or not or how terrible the schools are, they have to pay in to it. I realize that money to fund public schools may or may not be used to fund the sports programs, but again, that's something that the public schools are putting into place. Again with the stabbing your own leg thing. 2: Anytime a kid that plays sports shows up at a private school, it is scrutinized to no end and whatever the cost of dealing with that is (man hours, because labor ain't free) the school has to fund it. At a public school, if anyone even bothers to question it, the endless supply of tax money pays for whatever it takes to defend that kid coming there. And before this goes too far, do understand that I believe the private schools should form their own league and stay as far away as they can from the public schools. It blows my mind that the private schools would even consider staying in a league that is 100% against them. It just makes no sense. But politics in Louisiana being what it is kind of explains it. That said, the only reasons I can come up with as to why the LHSAA won't just toss out the private schools is that they like crapping on people while taking their money. That or they know if a private school league were to be formed that they'd get a real life lesson in what recruiting actually looks like. 1. I get that some public schools use a parish-wide open enrollment, but this isn't the case statewide and, to my knowledge, was only begun about a decade or so ago. In Ouachita Parish, you have Neville, West Monroe, Ouachita, West Ouachita, Richwood, Sterlington, Carroll and Wossman High School who all are required to accept any student within their attendance boundary. More specifically, this includes their athletes as well. My point is that private schools select their athletes from anywhere. They have a far greater reach to search for athletes than most public programs.
"They have to make money and a public school just chills out and that taxpayers, private school parents included, have to pay in. No matter if the system is working or not or how terrible the schools are, they have to pay in to it."
-This goes both ways. Public funds have been diverted into private schools in a number of ways. Look at school voucher programs for example. Vouchers allow parents to spend taxpayer dollars on schools of their choice; this includes private schools. It covers the cost of tuition and fees. Most states also offer a tax credit for scholarships where donors receive up to 100% of their donation in the form of a tax credit. This is a good point you make, but it does go both ways.
I appreciate the input. I really think you make some good points. I don't see why the privates haven't formed something similar to the MAIS. If I was in control of it all I was go back to the play up rule. I loved the Neville/JC matchups.
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Post by iamray on Apr 26, 2019 9:52:12 GMT -6
I surely will be glad when spring practice any practice for that matter starts and the focus hopefully will change to actual football and stop all this crap. Care to contribute to the discussion? Why waste time commenting on "crap?" Don't you think your time in this thread would be better utilized contributing to the discussion? I'm open to be persuaded. Hell, that's why I started the thread. Some people who hold differing opinions have made some really nice points. But, if you really feel so strongly about waiting for "spring practice" -in summer mind you- then just disappear until the season starts. You aren't doing anything productive in this discussion by calling it crap.
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Post by fanman on Apr 26, 2019 13:29:12 GMT -6
Grow a pair don’t be so thin skinned this is an opinion board as much as anything you can have yours I can have mine. Minutia abounds here
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Post by iamray on Apr 26, 2019 17:50:21 GMT -6
Grow a pair don’t be so thin skinned this is an opinion board as much as anything you can have yours I can have mine. Minutia abounds here <iframe width="36.77999999999997" height="2.9200000000000017" style="position: absolute; width: 36.77999999999997px; height: 2.9200000000000017px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none;left: 15px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_80132582" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="36.77999999999997" height="2.9200000000000017" style="position: absolute; width: 36.78px; height: 2.92px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1766px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_55205356" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="36.77999999999997" height="2.9200000000000017" style="position: absolute; width: 36.78px; height: 2.92px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 87px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_15422030" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="36.77999999999997" height="2.9200000000000017" style="position: absolute; width: 36.78px; height: 2.92px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1766px; top: 87px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_40703365" scrolling="no"></iframe> Whatever. I'm trying to be civil in a discussion and you come along like an uneducated redneck and make a dumbass post. Keep dreaming about "spring" practice while summer fast approaches, genius.
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Post by Southplaq on Apr 26, 2019 21:23:29 GMT -6
"If you want to start some poop, then make a post about the split" ….Southplaq I'm working on the lyrics to this song Country or Rap? Seems one of those would be the logical choice for a lyric driven song. Outside chance a Rock Power Ballad? IT'S A NEW GENRE, CALLED "COUN-TRAP". IT'S A MIXTURE OF COUNTRY AND TRAP MUSIC. It's sort of like Billy Ray Cyrus’ new song with the rapper, Lil Nas X called, "Old Town Road" If you haven't heard it yet......consider yourself lucky
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Post by fanman on Apr 27, 2019 5:39:15 GMT -6
Not uneducated nor redneck board certified in Anesthesia and retired LTC. and if you call that post civil then I am at a loss of what civility is. Like I said share your opinion that’s fine. And you can just continue to have it that’s fine as well
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Post by fanman on Apr 27, 2019 7:07:54 GMT -6
"If you want to start some poop, then make a post about the split" ….Southplaq I'm working on the lyrics to this song you should try stand up comedy I would come to your gig.
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Post by indy on Apr 27, 2019 7:29:57 GMT -6
"If you want to start some poop, then make a post about the split" ….Southplaq I'm working on the lyrics to this song you should try stand up comedy I would come to your gig. M Not sure they have that In the Special Olympics
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