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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2016 12:21:56 GMT -6
Similar to how everyone did paint "publics" and "charters" with a large brush. It just isnt so. No one was looking for solutions to why the Lakeview's of the world were obligated to take beatings from the Evangels and Calvarys of the world then.............so, a solution was found. The solution? Really? Did you just move here or something? When it was first mentioned that private schools would have to play in whatever class their enrollment dictated, EVERYBODY with a brain predicted what would happen. But that didn't matter because the big schools would be rid of ECA and Curtis. The solution would have been to put in place a multiplier or change the rules as to where a school can get kids from. Nobody wanted to do that, for some reason. Which has left me to believe that all along it has never been about making a "level" playing field and it still isn't. It was about positioning private schools to where publics won't have to play them. You have mentioned how unfair it is that private schools can draw students from wherever. I don't necessarily see that as an advantage, but I can see where some might. So let's just assume that it does give private schools an advantage. If ECA changes their enrollment policy to where they will only take students from Caddo parish, will they be allowed to then play with the "non-selects"? No. I don't believe they would be. Even though they would then be drawing students like every other school in the parish, that still wouldn't be enough. Why? I do agree with you that a solution was found. However, there are several solutions and the most retarded one possible was the one chosen. It's about like cutting off your leg to deal with an ingrown toe nail. Yes, it does get rid of the infected toe, but there are better ways to alleviate that condition. Well, actually, the zones have now been reverted back to the assigned zone by the LEA, not the parish line anymore. However, It makes AT LEAST as much difference as to who a school can refuse enrollment too, than who they can take. THE REASON FOR A PRIVATE ENITITY TO HAVE A SCHOOL IS TO GO BY RULES ITS SETS!!! ONE OF THOSE RULES IS ALWAYS SELECT ADMITTANCE!
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Post by pinion on Feb 25, 2016 12:38:30 GMT -6
The solution? Really? Did you just move here or something? When it was first mentioned that private schools would have to play in whatever class their enrollment dictated, EVERYBODY with a brain predicted what would happen. But that didn't matter because the big schools would be rid of ECA and Curtis. The solution would have been to put in place a multiplier or change the rules as to where a school can get kids from. Nobody wanted to do that, for some reason. Which has left me to believe that all along it has never been about making a "level" playing field and it still isn't. It was about positioning private schools to where publics won't have to play them. You have mentioned how unfair it is that private schools can draw students from wherever. I don't necessarily see that as an advantage, but I can see where some might. So let's just assume that it does give private schools an advantage. If ECA changes their enrollment policy to where they will only take students from Caddo parish, will they be allowed to then play with the "non-selects"? No. I don't believe they would be. Even though they would then be drawing students like every other school in the parish, that still wouldn't be enough. Why? I do agree with you that a solution was found. However, there are several solutions and the most retarded one possible was the one chosen. It's about like cutting off your leg to deal with an ingrown toe nail. Yes, it does get rid of the infected toe, but there are better ways to alleviate that condition. Well, actually, the zones have now been reverted back to the assigned zone by the LEA, not the parish line anymore. However, It makes AT LEAST as much difference as to who a school can refuse enrollment too, than who they can take. THE REASON FOR A PRIVATE ENITITY TO HAVE A SCHOOL IS TO GO BY RULES ITS SETS!!! ONE OF THOSE RULES IS ALWAYS SELECT ADMITTANCE! So then...The problem isn't that private schools can get kids from the next parish? Or is that part of a problem? It seems like you people have this big list of "advantages" that private schools have. You never want to talk about the multitude of advantages a public school has though. Weird how that works. The reason for a private school typically is because parents want a religious option and an option for a better education. Let's face it, the public schools in this state are not doing such a hot job. I think we're ranked 49th in the nation currently. So there's that. But yes, there is select admittance. There has to be. Otherwise, you would have every kid in the city coming there because public schools are failing. If private schools had practically unlimited money (as public schools do) then they would very likely open their doors and take anyone that wanted to come there. I'm just trying to get a feel for what you people have a problem with. Because it seems like it's recruiting accusations, kids coming from other parishes, being able to not take a kid, and God knows what else. And I'm fine with people not liking a private school. I just completely disagree with transferring any of those things onto a football field. does ECA has an advantage because they don't have to take a problem kid? Yes. they do. I just fail to see how that ends up on the football field. I mean, if ECA was constantly trying to keep their numbers down, I may would understand it. But they're not. ECA went to 5A as quick as they reasonably could and were forced out. Now they're back in 5A, where they want to be. Recruiting. Yes, I could see where that transfers onto the field. But that's not exclusive to private schools. In fact, it seems as though public schools are the ones that keep getting caught for it. Really, we can have words and not agree on things, I'm just trying to understand how any of your problems with private schools "advantages" translate to a football problem. I just can't see how they do and if they do, why a split would be the only solution.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2016 12:39:29 GMT -6
Well, actually, the zones have now been reverted back to the assigned zone by the LEA, not the parish line anymore. However, It makes AT LEAST as much difference as to who a school can refuse enrollment too, than who they can take. THE REASON FOR A PRIVATE ENITITY TO HAVE A SCHOOL IS TO GO BY RULES ITS SETS!!! ONE OF THOSE RULES IS ALWAYS SELECT ADMITTANCE! This has zero to do with athletics. Public schools SELECT who in their school can participate in athletics. Every one of them deny kids the opportunity to play sports for many reasons (not good player is probably the most common). Each coach SELECTS the kids that will play and does not allow everyone in the zone to play. Also, the problem schools want to play up, so they would (by this thought process) SELECT every warm body they could in order to play up. This whole train of thought came up when the first excuse (recruiting) was proven to be false. No, the real reason for the split was spite. Nothing more.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2016 13:15:11 GMT -6
Well, actually, the zones have now been reverted back to the assigned zone by the LEA, not the parish line anymore. However, It makes AT LEAST as much difference as to who a school can refuse enrollment too, than who they can take. THE REASON FOR A PRIVATE ENITITY TO HAVE A SCHOOL IS TO GO BY RULES ITS SETS!!! ONE OF THOSE RULES IS ALWAYS SELECT ADMITTANCE! This has zero to do with athletics. Public schools SELECT who in their school can participate in athletics. Every one of them deny kids the opportunity to play sports for many reasons (not good player is probably the most common). Each coach SELECTS the kids that will play and does not allow everyone in the zone to play. Also, the problem schools want to play up, so they would (by this thought process) SELECT every warm body they could in order to play up. This whole train of thought came up when the first excuse (recruiting) was proven to be false. No, the real reason for the split was spite. Nothing more. And this "spite" was caused by what?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2016 13:16:56 GMT -6
When you can control the DNA of the herd, your livestock increases in value. The entire point of a select school. Arguing a point that is undisputable is laughable.
Doesnt matter anyway. DONE
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Post by pinion on Feb 25, 2016 13:47:49 GMT -6
When you can control the DNA of the herd, your livestock increases in value. The entire point of a select school. Arguing a point that is undisputable is laughable. Doesnt matter anyway. DONE You say "done". But you're doing most of the talking on the subject (from your side of the fence). I mean, I agree. It's done. There is a split. It's not going back. Not ever. Why haven't you moved on? What more do you hope to gain? I would understand wanting to rub it in or whatever, but I really don't think that's what you're doing. It's like you're still campaigning for the split and we have the split. How very of you. Really though. I'll talk about it from now if people want to talk about it because I find it ridiculously retarded and uncalled for. But I'm also on the side that got run off. You got what you wanted, but you act like you still need to pitch the idea. The split is not fragile and there is no chance of coming back together. So I'm not sure why you continue to sell it. I've also noticed that a few pro-split folks are involved in conversations about the possibility of private schools forming their own league. Why do you care what private schools do? I would think, if anything, you would want the private schools to leave the LHSAA and go do their own thing. For instance, I was working a job a few years and there was a guy in the office that I was not a real big fan of. I was friendly to him as there was no need for him to know I didn't like him. He told me one day that he was looking at another job. I encouraged him to take it. I even wrote him a letter of recommendation. I knew he was most likely going to go to that job and not be able to cut it, but it got him out of my hair. so instead of telling him "if you change jobs, you won't be able to do the work". Or "they probably won't pay as much as we do" or anything of that nature. I don't see that kind of thing from the "non-select" bunch. I see a lot of trolling to get a reaction and a good bit of "you don't want to do that". Because I think at the end of the day, the private schools leaving is not a positive thing for the LHSAA and everybody knows it. What I think is that the non-select crowd doesnt want to have to interact with the private schools, but they don't want them leaving either. Kind of like my Xwife. She didn't want to be with me, but she was all in my business when I started dating again.
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Post by eag on Feb 25, 2016 13:50:44 GMT -6
When you can control the DNA of the herd, your livestock increases in value. The entire point of a select school. Arguing a point that is undisputable is laughable. Doesnt matter anyway. DONE You keep saying that, but is it not extremely relevant what you control the DNA for? If you try to control the herd to have only the biggest, fastest cattle then that's one thing. You can also control the DNA to have the smallest, most sluggish cattle. Or only brown ones. Or small horns, or whatever. A private school selecting kids without any regard to athletics is NOT in a superior position to a public school. Quite likely the opposite, in fact. How do you tell the difference? Results!! You keep saying no one can tell you why the split is bad. Tell me why, specifically rather than theoretical advantage, it is necessary to move Ecole Classique? Because they COULD use select status to enhance athletics is not a reason. It would be like eliminating Many from the playoffs because they COULD play an ineligible player.
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Post by Sixpack on Feb 25, 2016 18:45:58 GMT -6
When you can control the DNA of the herd, your livestock increases in value. The entire point of a select school. Arguing a point that is undisputable is laughable. Doesnt matter anyway. DONE You keep saying that, but is it not extremely relevant what you control the DNA for? If you try to control the herd to have only the biggest, fastest cattle then that's one thing. You can also control the DNA to have the smallest, most sluggish cattle. Or only brown ones. Or small horns, or whatever. A private school selecting kids without any regard to athletics is NOT in a superior position to a public school. Quite likely the opposite, in fact. How do you tell the difference? Results!! You keep saying no one can tell you why the split is bad. Tell me why, specifically rather than theoretical advantage, it is necessary to move Ecole Classique? Because they COULD use select status to enhance athletics is not a reason. It would be like eliminating Many from the playoffs because they COULD play an ineligible player. I don't follow your logic at all. If DNA is used to improve cattle it will ALWAYS be used for improvement and NEVER used for negative results so I don't know what point you are trying to make with the DNA example. And nobody is talking about private schools selecting kids without regard to athletics, That has nothing to do with the problem. It's about private schools selecting kids in regard to athletics and the way you tell the difference is looking at how many out of zone super athletes a private school powerhouse has had over the years. Private schools such as Ecole Classique are not the problem and as long as they don't use the rules to build dominating programs I doubt that public schools would have a problem with competing against those teams for championships. But that doesn't solve the specific problem public schools face in trying to compete against the private school football powers. I don't get your point comparing a small private school choosing not to use select status to enhance athletics with another school NOT using an ineligible player. Choosing not to use select status to enhance athletics is not against the rules. Playing an ineligible player is.
Here is how the problem evolved:
Back in the old days when the powerhouse private schools started their football programs they succeeded slowly at first with some very good athletes from within their assigned zones and maybe a few from outside. But it was mainly dedication, good coaching and hard work that started them on successful programs. That may even be what carried them to their first state titles. And you didn't hear any complaining from publics in the early days. But things began to change. Success breeds success and some of the public school athletic programs were not successful back when the privates began building their programs. The best players from all over began to think about playing for the successful privates who emphasized athletics because they knew they would have a chance for college scholarships that they might not have at their public schools. This gave any private school that really wanted to build a powerhouse program an avenue to do just that. They already had the dedication, the work ethic and the good coaching. They also had LHSAA rules that allowed them to play athletes who could iive anywhere and they had the successful reputation to interest those athletes. Many of the best athletes from surrounding locations found a way to use transfer rules to end up at those private schools. Look at the athletes at Calvary and Evangel who came from outside their assigned zones and in some cases from other towns or states. Then look at athletes who played at those schools while living outside the assigned zones of those two schools. Now show me an equal number of out of zone players at any public school. You can't do it because public schools have been required to use athletes from within their own zones with a few exceptions. That is a built in unfair advantage in the rules for any private school that chooses to use the advantage and talking about some little private school that either can not or will not use the advantage has nothing to do with the real problem.
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Post by eagle2180 on Feb 25, 2016 19:53:12 GMT -6
You keep saying that, but is it not extremely relevant what you control the DNA for? If you try to control the herd to have only the biggest, fastest cattle then that's one thing. You can also control the DNA to have the smallest, most sluggish cattle. Or only brown ones. Or small horns, or whatever. A private school selecting kids without any regard to athletics is NOT in a superior position to a public school. Quite likely the opposite, in fact. How do you tell the difference? Results!! You keep saying no one can tell you why the split is bad. Tell me why, specifically rather than theoretical advantage, it is necessary to move Ecole Classique? Because they COULD use select status to enhance athletics is not a reason. It would be like eliminating Many from the playoffs because they COULD play an ineligible player. I don't follow your logic at all. If DNA is used to improve cattle it will ALWAYS be used for improvement and NEVER used for negative results so I don't know what point you are trying to make with the DNA example. And nobody is talking about private schools selecting kids without regard to athletics, That has nothing to do with the problem. It's about private schools selecting kids in regard to athletics and the way you tell the difference is looking at how many out of zone super athletes a private school powerhouse has had over the years. Private schools such as Ecole Classique are not the problem and as long as they don't use the rules to build dominating programs I doubt that public schools would have a problem with competing against those teams for championships. But that doesn't solve the specific problem public schools face in trying to compete against the private school football powers. I don't get your point comparing a small private school choosing not to use select status to enhance athletics with another school NOT using an ineligible player. Choosing not to use select status to enhance athletics is not against the rules. Playing an ineligible player is.
Here is how the problem evolved:
Back in the old days when the powerhouse private schools started their football programs they succeeded slowly at first with some very good athletes from within their assigned zones and maybe a few from outside. But it was mainly dedication, good coaching and hard work that started them on successful programs. That may even be what carried them to their first state titles. And you didn't hear any complaining from publics in the early days. But things began to change. Success breeds success and some of the public school athletic programs were not successful back when the privates began building their programs. The best players from all over began to think about playing for the successful privates who emphasized athletics because they knew they would have a chance for college scholarships that they might not have at their public schools. This gave any private school that really wanted to build a powerhouse program an avenue to do just that. They already had the dedication, the work ethic and the good coaching. They also had LHSAA rules that allowed them to play athletes who could iive anywhere and they had the successful reputation to interest those athletes. Many of the best athletes from surrounding locations found a way to use transfer rules to end up at those private schools. Look at the athletes at Calvary and Evangel who came from outside their assigned zones and in some cases from other towns or states. Then look at athletes who played at those schools while living outside the assigned zones of those two schools. Now show me an equal number of out of zone players at any public school. You can't do it because public schools have been required to use athletes from within their own zones with a few exceptions. That is a built in unfair advantage in the rules for any private school that chooses to use the advantage and talking about some little private school that either can not or will not use the advantage has nothing to do with the real problem.
Name them six. Who are all the out of zone players that have made Calvary and Evangel successful?
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Post by eagle2180 on Feb 25, 2016 20:05:22 GMT -6
I don't follow your logic at all. If DNA is used to improve cattle it will ALWAYS be used for improvement and NEVER used for negative results so I don't know what point you are trying to make with the DNA example. And nobody is talking about private schools selecting kids without regard to athletics, That has nothing to do with the problem. It's about private schools selecting kids in regard to athletics and the way you tell the difference is looking at how many out of zone super athletes a private school powerhouse has had over the years. Private schools such as Ecole Classique are not the problem and as long as they don't use the rules to build dominating programs I doubt that public schools would have a problem with competing against those teams for championships. But that doesn't solve the specific problem public schools face in trying to compete against the private school football powers. I don't get your point comparing a small private school choosing not to use select status to enhance athletics with another school NOT using an ineligible player. Choosing not to use select status to enhance athletics is not against the rules. Playing an ineligible player is.
Here is how the problem evolved:
Back in the old days when the powerhouse private schools started their football programs they succeeded slowly at first with some very good athletes from within their assigned zones and maybe a few from outside. But it was mainly dedication, good coaching and hard work that started them on successful programs. That may even be what carried them to their first state titles. And you didn't hear any complaining from publics in the early days. But things began to change. Success breeds success and some of the public school athletic programs were not successful back when the privates began building their programs. The best players from all over began to think about playing for the successful privates who emphasized athletics because they knew they would have a chance for college scholarships that they might not have at their public schools. This gave any private school that really wanted to build a powerhouse program an avenue to do just that. They already had the dedication, the work ethic and the good coaching. They also had LHSAA rules that allowed them to play athletes who could iive anywhere and they had the successful reputation to interest those athletes. Many of the best athletes from surrounding locations found a way to use transfer rules to end up at those private schools. Look at the athletes at Calvary and Evangel who came from outside their assigned zones and in some cases from other towns or states. Then look at athletes who played at those schools while living outside the assigned zones of those two schools. Now show me an equal number of out of zone players at any public school. You can't do it because public schools have been required to use athletes from within their own zones with a few exceptions. That is a built in unfair advantage in the rules for any private school that chooses to use the advantage and talking about some little private school that either can not or will not use the advantage has nothing to do with the real problem.
Name them six. Who are all the out of zone players that have made Calvary and Evangel successful? I'll start the list.. Philip Deas from Airline's district, Robert Davis from Logansport, Cole Pitman, Chase Pitman (both Pitman's attended private school before transferring).......
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Post by eag on Feb 25, 2016 20:18:02 GMT -6
You keep saying that, but is it not extremely relevant what you control the DNA for? If you try to control the herd to have only the biggest, fastest cattle then that's one thing. You can also control the DNA to have the smallest, most sluggish cattle. Or only brown ones. Or small horns, or whatever. A private school selecting kids without any regard to athletics is NOT in a superior position to a public school. Quite likely the opposite, in fact. How do you tell the difference? Results!! You keep saying no one can tell you why the split is bad. Tell me why, specifically rather than theoretical advantage, it is necessary to move Ecole Classique? Because they COULD use select status to enhance athletics is not a reason. It would be like eliminating Many from the playoffs because they COULD play an ineligible player. I don't follow your logic at all. If DNA is used to improve cattle it will ALWAYS be used for improvement and NEVER used for negative results so I don't know what point you are trying to make with the DNA example. And nobody is talking about private schools selecting kids without regard to athletics, That has nothing to do with the problem. It's about private schools selecting kids in regard to athletics and the way you tell the difference is looking at how many out of zone super athletes a private school powerhouse has had over the years. Private schools such as Ecole Classique are not the problem and as long as they don't use the rules to build dominating programs I doubt that public schools would have a problem with competing against those teams for championships. But that doesn't solve the specific problem public schools face in trying to compete against the private school football powers. I don't get your point comparing a small private school choosing not to use select status to enhance athletics with another school NOT using an ineligible player. Choosing not to use select status to enhance athletics is not against the rules. Playing an ineligible player is.
Here is how the problem evolved:
Back in the old days when the powerhouse private schools started their football programs they succeeded slowly at first with some very good athletes from within their assigned zones and maybe a few from outside. But it was mainly dedication, good coaching and hard work that started them on successful programs. That may even be what carried them to their first state titles. And you didn't hear any complaining from publics in the early days. But things began to change. Success breeds success and some of the public school athletic programs were not successful back when the privates began building their programs. The best players from all over began to think about playing for the successful privates who emphasized athletics because they knew they would have a chance for college scholarships that they might not have at their public schools. This gave any private school that really wanted to build a powerhouse program an avenue to do just that. They already had the dedication, the work ethic and the good coaching. They also had LHSAA rules that allowed them to play athletes who could iive anywhere and they had the successful reputation to interest those athletes. Many of the best athletes from surrounding locations found a way to use transfer rules to end up at those private schools. Look at the athletes at Calvary and Evangel who came from outside their assigned zones and in some cases from other towns or states. Then look at athletes who played at those schools while living outside the assigned zones of those two schools. Now show me an equal number of out of zone players at any public school. You can't do it because public schools have been required to use athletes from within their own zones with a few exceptions. That is a built in unfair advantage in the rules for any private school that chooses to use the advantage and talking about some little private school that either can not or will not use the advantage has nothing to do with the real problem.
Bottom line is we agree. Privates who do not use select status to athletic ends are not part of the problem. So, why are they being segregated out?? Why not just do something that applies to the schools that use the advantage for athletic purpose such as out-of-zone multiplier/ success metric? As as far as the example about not using an ineligible player- my point is that we do not punish schools for what they COULD do, only for what they DO do. Unless they are a private school, in which case we segregate them because of what the could do. Or more to the point, for what some other school does.
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Post by BGH on Feb 25, 2016 20:38:11 GMT -6
Here is how the problem evolved:
Back in the old days when the powerhouse private schools started their football programs they succeeded slowly at first with some very good athletes from within their assigned zones and maybe a few from outside. But it was mainly dedication, good coaching and hard work that started them on successful programs. That may even be what carried them to their first state titles. And you didn't hear any complaining from publics in the early days. But things began to change. Success breeds success and some of the public school athletic programs were not successful back when the privates began building their programs. The best players from all over began to think about playing for the successful privates who emphasized athletics because they knew they would have a chance for college scholarships that they might not have at their public schools. This gave any private school that really wanted to build a powerhouse program an avenue to do just that. They already had the dedication, the work ethic and the good coaching. They also had LHSAA rules that allowed them to play athletes who could iive anywhere and they had the successful reputation to interest those athletes. Many of the best athletes from surrounding locations found a way to use transfer rules to end up at those private schools. Look at the athletes at Calvary and Evangel who came from outside their assigned zones and in some cases from other towns or states. Then look at athletes who played at those schools while living outside the assigned zones of those two schools. Now show me an equal number of out of zone players at any public school. You can't do it because public schools have been required to use athletes from within their own zones with a few exceptions. That is a built in unfair advantage in the rules for any private school that chooses to use the advantage and talking about some little private school that either can not or will not use the advantage has nothing to do with the real problem.
Sixpack I have sat back a read with interest while you have made this argument for several months now. While I do not disagree with your analysis of how the problem evolved, I do disagree with some of the elements of your analysis. First, lets say what the problem is. Curtis and Evangel have won too much. If that had not happened we would not be having this discussion nor would there have been any split. This whole Select and Non Select discussion is just made up crap because the LHSAA was too cowardly to say Curtis and Evangel win too much. I have been reading a lot of your posts lately where you talk about the unfair advantage of private schools not having zones. You have even given logical examples of why it would be an advantage. But you are only telling half the story, which means it is less than truthful. In your message above you talk about Evangel athletes from outside their zone. What is Evangel's zone? It is the exact same zone as Huntington. Huntington's zone was designed for one reason and one reason only, and that is to give Huntington High School a full student body. Almost every pubic school in the state has the same advantage of having an attendance zone designed give the school a full student body. Private schools do not have that advantage. In order to succeed they need to attract enough of a student body to remain financially viable. Considering that probably 95% of the students (just a guess but I am open to using your best guess if you like) in Evangel's assigned zone will attend Huntington you have automatically put Evangel or any private school at a distinct disadvantage. The only way they can survive as a school or a team is to be able to draw from a larger area. You said " Look at the athletes at Calvary and Evangel who came from outside their assigned zones and in some cases from other towns or states. Then look at athletes who played at those schools while living outside the assigned zones of those two schools. Now show me an equal number of out of zone players at any public school." You should know that your favorite public school Byrd has a defined attendance zone too, although is is not designed to fill the school. As a magnet they automatically fill the school each year and are able to decline a multitude of applications in doing so. They can take students from anywhere within the parish and it is all paid for by the taxpayer. Their school is full of out of zone athletes that may be greater than Calvary or Evangel. If Byrd or any other Shreveport public school can have students from anywhere in the parish then how can you say Evangel has an advantage over them? In fact if Evangel were restricted to Caddo parish they would still be at a distinct disadvantage to every other Shreveport public school because those schools can attract students with free tuition. My point to this rant, is that when you make simplistic statements about the advantages of private schools getting students from outside their zone, you are telling a half-truth. Is there a solution? I am beginning to doubt it. I once thought that making all private schools use a multiplier to determine enrollment was a beginning, but it is probably too late for that, because the public's want one set of rules that fit all. they want the rules designed for the public schools and force the private schools to abide by them. Because the publics and privates are fundamentally different there is no way one set of rules will work for both. I suppose a complete split is the only way to go now, if the private schools want to be treated fairly. Of course the vindictive LHSAA will then prohibit their member schools from playing teams in a new private association. If there is a split, watch the LHSAA try to pick off the Catholic schools by enticing them to stay. It is all about control and backroom deals for the LHSAA. Of course this is Louisiana.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2016 20:51:51 GMT -6
IF PRIVATE SCHOOLS DO FORM THEIR OWN ASSOCIATION LIKE SOME PEOPLE WANT THEM TO DO ,THE QUESTION THEN BECOMES WHAT HAPPENS TO PUBLIC SCHOOLS . WILL UNIVERSITY LAB ,SOUTHERN LAB , SCOTLANDVILLE ,BYRD,ETC WILL NOW HAVE UNFAIR ADVANTAGES OVER OTHER PUBLIS SCHOOLS .? WHAT DO WE DO WITH THEM ? ARE WE DOWN TO FOUR CLASSES INSTEAD OF 5 CLASSES ? DO WE FINALLY GET RID OF CLASS B AND C SCHOOLS AND MAKE THEM PLAY 1A ? BE CAREFUL WHAT U WISH FOR !!! In a recent meeting in Baton Rouge to discuss a new association, a couple of those schools were in attendance along with a couple of 5A schools, that are considered non select.
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Post by Sixpack on Feb 25, 2016 21:00:54 GMT -6
Name them six. Who are all the out of zone players that have made Calvary and Evangel successful? I'll start the list.. Philip Deas from Airline's district, Robert Davis from Logansport, Cole Pitman, Chase Pitman (both Pitman's attended private school before transferring)....... Why are you asking me about out of zone players if you already know of some?
I don't have a list of Evangel's out of zone players over the last decade or two in front of me.
I can't accurately explain the theory of gravity either but I know when an apple falls on my head. Maybe BGH or someone who knows ECA football better than I do can list the out of zone players Evangel has played in the last 25 years.
I remember they had an eligibility problem with Cody Allison although I don't think he was an impact player. More importantly would be to know how many of their superstars lived in or out of the zone or transferred in fro somewhere else.
Since you seem to know a lot about Evangel football maybe you can tell me. How many of the following players other than those you already listed do you know either resided outside the ECA-Huntington zone OR transferred into the zone from somewhere else. Phillip Geiggar, Chris Bowers, Eric Jefferson, Cisco Perkins (ruled ineligible), Bubba Alexander, Justin Hermes, Byron Dawson, Richard Smith, Nemi Rodgers, Brent Rawls, Jacob Hester, Jonathon Wade, Tristen Ross, Mark Miller, Keyunta Dawson, Geoff Nixon (ruled ineligible transfer), Billy Barefield, Jamaria Rascoe?
I have no doubt some of those players were home grown but all I can say is if all those studs grew up in the little ECA-Huntington zone then that is the most prolific zone for good football players this side of River Ridge, La.
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Post by eagle2180 on Feb 25, 2016 21:08:09 GMT -6
Well, most Caddo parish schools have magnet programs..... But, you answered my questions. Throw out enough crap and some of it will stick!
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Post by Sixpack on Feb 25, 2016 22:06:15 GMT -6
Here is how the problem evolved:
Back in the old days when the powerhouse private schools started their football programs they succeeded slowly at first with some very good athletes from within their assigned zones and maybe a few from outside. But it was mainly dedication, good coaching and hard work that started them on successful programs. That may even be what carried them to their first state titles. And you didn't hear any complaining from publics in the early days. But things began to change. Success breeds success and some of the public school athletic programs were not successful back when the privates began building their programs. The best players from all over began to think about playing for the successful privates who emphasized athletics because they knew they would have a chance for college scholarships that they might not have at their public schools. This gave any private school that really wanted to build a powerhouse program an avenue to do just that. They already had the dedication, the work ethic and the good coaching. They also had LHSAA rules that allowed them to play athletes who could iive anywhere and they had the successful reputation to interest those athletes. Many of the best athletes from surrounding locations found a way to use transfer rules to end up at those private schools. Look at the athletes at Calvary and Evangel who came from outside their assigned zones and in some cases from other towns or states. Then look at athletes who played at those schools while living outside the assigned zones of those two schools. Now show me an equal number of out of zone players at any public school. You can't do it because public schools have been required to use athletes from within their own zones with a few exceptions. That is a built in unfair advantage in the rules for any private school that chooses to use the advantage and talking about some little private school that either can not or will not use the advantage has nothing to do with the real problem.
Sixpack I have sat back a read with interest while you have made this argument for several months now. While I do not disagree with your analysis of how the problem evolved, I do disagree with some of the elements of your analysis. First, lets say what the problem is. Curtis and Evangel have won too much. If that had not happened we would not be having this discussion nor would there have been any split. This whole Select and Non Select discussion is just made up crap because the LHSAA was too cowardly to say Curtis and Evangel win too much. I have been reading a lot of your posts lately where you talk about the unfair advantage of private schools not having zones. You have even given logical examples of why it would be an advantage. But you are only telling half the story, which means it is less than truthful. In your message above you talk about Evangel athletes from outside their zone. What is Evangel's zone? It is the exact same zone as Huntington. Huntington's zone was designed for one reason and one reason only, and that is to give Huntington High School a full student body. Almost every pubic school in the state has the same advantage of having an attendance zone designed give the school a full student body. Private schools do not have that advantage. In order to succeed they need to attract enough of a student body to remain financially viable. Considering that probably 95% of the students (just a guess but I am open to using your best guess if you like) in Evangel's assigned zone will attend Huntington you have automatically put Evangel or any private school at a distinct disadvantage. The only way they can survive as a school or a team is to be able to draw from a larger area. You said " Look at the athletes at Calvary and Evangel who came from outside their assigned zones and in some cases from other towns or states. Then look at athletes who played at those schools while living outside the assigned zones of those two schools. Now show me an equal number of out of zone players at any public school." You should know that your favorite public school Byrd has a defined attendance zone too, although is is not designed to fill the school. As a magnet they automatically fill the school each year and are able to decline a multitude of applications in doing so. They can take students from anywhere within the parish and it is all paid for by the taxpayer. Their school is full of out of zone athletes that may be greater than Calvary or Evangel. If Byrd or any other Shreveport public school can have students from anywhere in the parish then how can you say Evangel has an advantage over them? In fact if Evangel were restricted to Caddo parish they would still be at a distinct disadvantage to every other Shreveport public school because those schools can attract students with free tuition. My point to this rant, is that when you make simplistic statements about the advantages of private schools getting students from outside their zone, you are telling a half-truth. Is there a solution? I am beginning to doubt it. I once thought that making all private schools use a multiplier to determine enrollment was a beginning, but it is probably too late for that, because the public's want one set of rules that fit all. they want the rules designed for the public schools and force the private schools to abide by them. Because the publics and privates are fundamentally different there is no way one set of rules will work for both. I suppose a complete split is the only way to go now, if the private schools want to be treated fairly. Of course the vindictive LHSAA will then prohibit their member schools from playing teams in a new private association. If there is a split, watch the LHSAA try to pick off the Catholic schools by enticing them to stay. It is all about control and backroom deals for the LHSAA. Of course this is Louisiana.
You have a perfect right to your opinion that the LHSAA implemented the select-non select divisions because ECA and JC won too much. I have a different opinion. My opinion is the same as the LHSAA members who voted for change, that the problem is the ability of private schools to use out of zone athletes, which until recently no public school could legally do. I think much of Evangel[s success has been due to their own good work but there is no denying they had access to a rule, especially in the early years, that public schools did not have.
I have never said private schools don't have zones. Where did I say that? I agree with you that public schools have full student bodies. And as far as I know Evangel has a full student body or very close to a full student body. What has that got to do with athletic competition? In fact if you believe that a public school with a full student body makes athletic competition fair with private schools that can get athletes from outside their zones then you should be able to reasonably explain why public schools, throughout Louisiana, with full student bodies have never been able to consistently compete in football with Evangel and their small student body.
Your example of Byrd is correct. Byrd, as a magnet, is able to compete fairly well with Evangel. But that is not true for most of the other public high schools in North La. And the parish wide rule for public schools has been in effect how long? One year out of the last 25 years that Evangel has been able to convert a sit out rule into an open attendance zone? That's fair? And if tuition is a drawback to a private school's ability to field a dominating football team, as you suggest, someone must have forgotten to inform Evangel and John Curtis about that. Tuition hasn't slowed down those two schools from dominating in football as far as I can tell. I agree with you that we may be talking about a problem without a solution. Ironically I think the system we had last year, flawed as it might have been, may have been the best possible solution. And don't take my argument for fairness as a dig at Evangel. Along with Byrd, and to some extent Parkway, Evangel is still my favorite local team and I still make a lot of Eagle games every year.
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Post by chalmetteowl on Feb 26, 2016 9:11:16 GMT -6
it only takes one kid to skew competition if he's the right one...
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Post by BGH on Feb 26, 2016 9:41:54 GMT -6
You have a perfect right to your opinion that the LHSAA implemented the select-non select divisions because ECA and JC won too much. I have a different opinion. My opinion is the same as the LHSAA members who voted for change, that the problem is the ability of private schools to use out of zone athletes, which until recently no public school could legally do. I think much of Evangel[s success has been due to their own good work but there is no denying they had access to a rule, especially in the early years, that public schools did not have.
I have never said private schools don't have zones. Where did I say that? I agree with you that public schools have full student bodies. And as far as I know Evangel has a full student body or very close to a full student body. What has that got to do with athletic competition? In fact if you believe that a public school with a full student body makes athletic competition fair with private schools that can get athletes from outside their zones then you should be able to reasonably explain why public schools, throughout Louisiana, with full student bodies have never been able to consistently compete in football with Evangel and their small student body.
Your example of Byrd is correct. Byrd, as a magnet, is able to compete fairly well with Evangel. But that is not true for most of the other public high schools in North La. And the parish wide rule for public schools has been in effect how long? One year out of the last 25 years that Evangel has been able to convert a sit out rule into an open attendance zone? That's fair? And if tuition is a drawback to a private school's ability to field a dominating football team, as you suggest, someone must have forgotten to inform Evangel and John Curtis about that. Tuition hasn't slowed down those two schools from dominating in football as far as I can tell. I agree with you that we may be talking about a problem without a solution. Ironically I think the system we had last year, flawed as it might have been, may have been the best possible solution. And don't take my argument for fairness as a dig at Evangel. Along with Byrd, and to some extent Parkway, Evangel is still my favorite local team and I still make a lot of Eagle games every year.
You said "My opinion is the same as the LHSAA members who voted for change, that the problem is the ability of private schools to use out of zone athletes, which until recently no public school could legally do". You are also entitled to your own opinion, but you can only guess what the opinion of the LHSAA members were. If their opinion was the same as yours, then why did they allow a school like Byrd to continue playing as a non-select. Byrd had been getting out of zone athletes since before Evangel ever played a football game? "I have never said private schools don't have zones. Where did I say that?" Perhaps I should have said abide by their zones. Isn't that your whole premise, that private schools get out of zone players while public schools cannot? "I agree with you that public schools have full student bodies. And as far as I know Evangel has a full student body or very close to a full student body. What has that got to do with athletic competition?" Public Schools should have a full student body, their zone was designed to do that very thing. I have no idea what Evangel;s idea capacity would be, but I think they were pushing 400 at one time. If you think full student bodies was the point, then you completely missed it. The point is that Evangel's zone was set by the LHSAA, yet the zone was designed for a public school by a public school board without any regard to Evangel. Full student bodies have nothing to do with athletic competition, but allowing a public school to design a zone and then holding Evangel to that zone does ultimately affect competition. I have long maintained that is why the LHSAA allows private schools to have players from outside their zone in the first place, to offset the inherent disadvantage of not having their own zone. "In fact if you believe that a public school with a full student body makes athletic competition fair with private schools that can get athletes from outside their zones then you should be able to reasonably explain why public schools, throughout Louisiana, with full student bodies have never been able to consistently compete in football with Evangel and their small student body." As I mentioned above it has nothing to do with full student bodies, it is about the limits placed on private schools by having to abide by a public school zone. Evidently for years the LHSAA agreed with this also, as they have allowed private schools to reach out beyond their zone. It seemed an equitable concession until two schools started winning too much. "Your example of Byrd is correct. Byrd, as a magnet, is able to compete fairly well with Evangel. But that is not true for most of the other public high schools in North La. And the parish wide rule for public schools has been in effect how long? One year out of the last 25 years that Evangel has been able to convert a sit out rule into an open attendance zone? That's fair? You have not understood the "parish wide" rule since it came out last year, and you admitted so. That rule had one purpose only, it allowed several public schools (one of them was Byrd) to be move back into the non-select division. It changed no zones, because the LHSAA does not have the authority. Byrd has been getting out of zone athletes since Evangel came into existence. The amount of out of zone athletes they have, pushed them way over the threshold of being a Select school, which they were for one year until the LHSAA bailed them out. By the way every other Shreveport school has had the ability to get out of zone athletes since they became magnet schools 10 years or more ago. Byrd did it first and best and now that is where everybody wants to go."And if tuition is a drawback to a private school's ability to field a dominating football team, as you suggest, someone must have forgotten to inform Evangel and John Curtis about that. Tuition hasn't slowed down those two schools from dominating in football as far as I can tell." Once again you missed the point. The shared zone and tuition only come into play when you try to limit a private school to a single public school zone. It seems funny to me how you say that it is not about Curtis and Evangel winning, yet you bring it up all through your post.
'I agree with you that we may be talking about a problem without a solution. Ironically I think the system we had last year, flawed as it might have been, may have been the best possible solution. And don't take my argument for fairness as a dig at Evangel. Along with Byrd, and to some extent Parkway, Evangel is still my favorite local team and I still make a lot of Eagle games every year". I hate it, but I am to the point where I think we need a complete split. The systems we have had the last two years are a spit in the face of the private schools. Empty playoff brackets, and poor dome playing dates are not my idea of a good solution.
You and I are not really far apart of the issue. We both see inequities and fairness issues and we can discuss them. But if we can't come to an agreement, there is no way the LHSAA will work it out.
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